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Author Topic: Never heard this before-----  (Read 42006 times)

Mike Sokol

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2016, 02:10:06 PM »

Musicians seldom want to listen to soundpersons speak authoritatively about sound and they will almost never listen to a soundperson attempt a serious discussion of arrangments as that is "art" and soundpersons are not "artists".

I'm not joking.  And my degree track was in music performance & education....

So true, which is why you need to speak to the music director or conductor first. In my AOG example above, I had already taught these pastors a day-long seminar on music mixing for worship, so they were all receptive to my suggestions. I guess they wanted to see if I knew what I was talking about or just blowing smoke up their skirts. But with most situations it's best to have some EQ and Dynamic tricks up your sleeve.

Stephen Kirby

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2016, 10:35:17 PM »

Very true, but sometimes difficult to get the music director to acknowledge that fact. I once did a gig at an Assembly of God Church conference. Now I'm pretty sure that every AOG minister gets a guitar or keyboard when they graduate seminary, since just about every one of them I've met will play a guitar or keyboard at the drop of a hat. So on this gig I had 4 pastors all play guitar... EXACTLY the same way. There was just no way to separate them in the mix, so during rehearsal I asked the musical director in charge of the program if I can change up their playing arrangement a bit, and he agreed. So I had one guitarist play normal full chords, one play a little chick'n scratching, one capo up and play in a higher register, and one do arpeggios. I also changed up the beats a little so some would play on 1 and 3, while another would play on 2 and 4, etc... It really worked great, and the music director loved it and admitted he had never tried anything like that before. BUT you've got to get the music director to buy into this idea and have time to practice. If I'm in the middle of a live event and the mix turns to mud, then the only thing I can do is carve out some offending frequencies, boost others to fill in the holes, and do some dynamic control to smooth out the road. For instance, I NEVER used to put a compressor on snare until I started working with young volunteer drummers in worship music. Since some of these kids can't hit the snare drum the same way twice in a row, the only way to survive the mess is to dynamically clamp it.
If you really want to watch a light bulb go off, have each guitar only play two notes of the chord.  I-V, IX-VII, III-I 8va, and so on.  The whole stage shimmers with the chord.
The JB thing also works and is usually easier for folks to get.

I agree that the only time I resort to spectrum carving is when you have everyone playing the whole song by themselves instead of playing an arrangement.  Also, sometimes you don't want to have individually delineated instruments.  I'll often just turn a bunch of things down into a pad underneath the main bits.  There's mud, but the mud is a base that you can hear the beat and vocal/solo over.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #102 on: July 01, 2016, 06:42:14 AM »

But they have 10 fingers-so EVERY ONE should be playing a note-right????

I play keys, and many years ago one of my guitar players told me I needed to add some "air" to my playing and not fill in every available space. He was right, of course, and after that our arrangements became much more listenable. You can also hear this idea in many charting songs where the guitarist (or whoever) sneaks in notes between the phrasing of the singer. This sort of arrangement also helps considerably with stage monitoring.

So I would say that all great mixes start with a great arrangement. 

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #103 on: July 01, 2016, 07:38:25 AM »

So true, which is why you need to speak to the music director or conductor first. In my AOG example above, I had already taught these pastors a day-long seminar on music mixing for worship, so they were all receptive to my suggestions. I guess they wanted to see if I knew what I was talking about or just blowing smoke up their skirts. But with most situations it's best to have some EQ and Dynamic tricks up your sleeve.
Years ago I was hired to run sound for a Church Christmas production with full orchestra.

I had been hanging around the musicians before practice.

I was pretty much given the "cold shoulder" because I was "just another sound guy".

When I was formally introduced right before rehearsal-a little bit of my background was told to them.

I was immediately accepted-because they felt I was "one of them".

They listened to my requests and everything went great.

When you make the artist feel as if you understand THEIR side of things, everything goes much easier.
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Ivan Beaver
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #104 on: July 01, 2016, 07:40:46 AM »



So I would say that all great mixes start with a great arrangement.

Yes, very often there is simple "to much going on" to be able to hear the real music.

That is what I hate about a lot of modern music.

It is simply a wall of mush with somebody singing.

No real arrangements, no instruments playing off of each other etc.

I love old Deep Purple and bands like Blood Sweat & tears for the way each instrument has a part, and they only play their part-leaving space for the other instruments to play.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Scott Helmke

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2016, 12:29:12 PM »

I think that you can't really mix effectively if you don't think like an arranger.

That's why you see a lot of bass players becoming sound techs. They're used to thinking in terms of ensemble sound instead of personal glory.
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John L Nobile

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2016, 05:52:48 PM »

Years ago we were doing a Broadway review and the director was a conductor/pianist. And a real PAIN. But he taught me one thing. He said to mix the show like you're the conductor. I never thought of it that way but I have ever since.
And if you're doing lights as well, you can control the tempo somewhat by adjusting chase speed. Always works with a bad drummer.
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Ed Pharlan

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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2016, 05:03:38 PM »

I think the phenomenon described is one of what one has become accustomed to...  My mother never had any quality sound reproduction to listen to most of her life.  When listening to a system that wasn't a table radio 3" speaker she would want the bass rolled off significantly while the same bass at a live concert didn't cause the same distress.  She told me she wasn't "looking for" accurate reproduction when I asked if she had any regard for the recording/sound engineer's/musician's intentions. "Better sound through marketing" :(  How often do any of us hear the "magic" in music reproduced unless we are in the business of trying to facilitate it?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 05:06:28 PM by Ed Pharlan »
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Re: Never heard this before-----
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2016, 05:03:38 PM »


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