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[Tim McCulloch]

Okay, I'm sold on dropping the DA7. I still haven't decided now whether I want to go digital.  One question I have that may help with the decision, is whether control of the board can be "handed over" to another device without any problems? Here's the scenario, the person who is supposed to do their service usually shows up from anywhere  before the praise band starts rehearsing (he also plays guitar for this), or right before the service begins. Since I'm already there for our service, I take it on until he's done playing and then he takes over. I've decided on the  Behringer X18. BTW, I looked for the ones mentioned, and I don't think I saw one for under $1200 - $1300.    Besides, I don't need 32 channels.

IOW, can one user whose name rhymes with Nathan begin the necessary pre-service checks and run through until the designated Late Person can take over on a separate tablet?  Yes.  You can close the app on your phone or tablet and if Late Person gets in over his head or you hear something he's not catching, you can open the app back up and "help".

[Nathan Vanderslice]

IOW, can one user whose name rhymes with Nathan begin the necessary pre-service checks and run through until the designated Late Person can take over on a separate tablet?  Yes.  You can close the app on your phone or tablet and if Late Person gets in over his head or you hear something he's not catching, you can open the app back up and "help".

Hey Tim, other than the "IOW" you've got it! Sorry, there's a lot of the acronyms that I don't know. Love your response though! I downloaded the X air app for my tablet, a great way to experiment (to a point) and learn. What I don't see anywhere is how to establish groups. I see mute groups, but not the regular groups that you would see on an analogue mixer. I do however see the DCA option. If I use the DCA, will it keep all the levels relative to their individual settings? I finally figured out on the DA7 that there were groups, but they were virtual. In the mean time, I'll work on it some more. Thanks again.

[Rick Powell]

Hey Tim, other than the "IOW" you've got it! Sorry, there's a lot of the acronyms that I don't know.

In other words.

[Nathan Vanderslice]

In other words.

Forehead slap: Silly me!

[Luke Geis]

A used X32 compact or producer should run right around $600. The X18 which I have used and like for most things, does not have a hard work surface. It can have multiple devices connected to it at once though. The nice thing about the X series stuff from Behringer is that they work with PC and mac and any Phablet du-jour that has the correct app.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hey Tim, other than the "IOW" you've got it! Sorry, there's a lot of the acronyms that I don't know. Love your response though! I downloaded the X air app for my tablet, a great way to experiment (to a point) and learn. What I don't see anywhere is how to establish groups. I see mute groups, but not the regular groups that you would see on an analogue mixer. I do however see the DCA option. If I use the DCA, will it keep all the levels relative to their individual settings? I finally figured out on the DA7 that there were groups, but they were virtual. In the mean time, I'll work on it some more. Thanks again.

I've not used the X-Air series mixers, but I quit using "sub groups/sub masters/groups" for manual level control a long time ago.  That's what DCA (the new version of VCA) is for.

The VCA is an analogue construct - Voltage Controlled Amplifier - and is a chip in each channel's signal path that changes the channel's internal level in proportion to a control voltage (kind of like old 0-10v. analogue controlled lighting dimmers).  The VCA could be right after the input preamp, or after the "PRE" sends of the channel.  You'd assign channels to a VCA and use the VCA fader to control the level of all assigned channels as a group.  The DCA is the digital realization of this feature, the difference being that it all happens in the happy land of ones and zeros and does not use a physical amplifier chip in the channel circuit.  In both cases NO AUDIO passes through the VCA/DCA circuit or fader, only a control voltage or control signal - this is why you can't insert processing in a VCA/DCA group (there is a brand/model exception to this, IIRC, but it's beyond the point of our discussion).

I suggest you do a web search for "Mixing with VCAs".  It was either a Soundcraft or Allen-Heath white paper that describes the advantages and limitations of using this means of grouping.

So to answer the final question, YES, a VCA/DCA preserves any level differences, panning, EQ, etc between inputs.  It applies level change uniformly across all assigned inputs.  It can also control stereo inputs and mono inputs at the same time as it's only a control signal, not an audio signal path.

Finally, there has been a shift in the use of nomenclature - most mixers no longer do "groups" (as in audio groups) they do "mixes" or "buses".  Mixes/buses can be fixed level from channel to the "master mix output" like a legacy group/sub master/audio group, or can be variable like an "Aux bus" for monitors or effects sends.  My first exposure to this was with the Yamaha M-3000 (oy, how I'd like to forget that mixer) and it took a long time for me to finally forget the Ye Olde Wayz of referring to things.

Have fun with this.  Once you get passed the changes in wording and realize that signal flow is pretty much the same (logically at least) you'll have an easier time.

[Scott Holtzman]

A used X32 compact or producer should run right around $600. The X18 which I have used and like for most things, does not have a hard work surface. It can have multiple devices connected to it at once though. The nice thing about the X series stuff from Behringer is that they work with PC and mac and any Phablet du-jour that has the correct app.

A compact or a producer for $600 would be quite a deal.  The least expensive one that sold on eBay in last 6 months was $1300

[Luke Geis]

It would appear you are correct Scott. There is one listed at the moment for $775 or so. They are holding value well.

[Nathan Vanderslice]

I've not used the X-Air series mixers, but I quit using "sub groups/sub masters/groups" for manual level control a long time ago.  That's what DCA (the new version of VCA) is for.

The VCA is an analogue construct - Voltage Controlled Amplifier - and is a chip in each channel's signal path that changes the channel's internal level in proportion to a control voltage (kind of like old 0-10v. analogue controlled lighting dimmers).  The VCA could be right after the input preamp, or after the "PRE" sends of the channel.  You'd assign channels to a VCA and use the VCA fader to control the level of all assigned channels as a group.  The DCA is the digital realization of this feature, the difference being that it all happens in the happy land of ones and zeros and does not use a physical amplifier chip in the channel circuit.  In both cases NO AUDIO passes through the VCA/DCA circuit or fader, only a control voltage or control signal - this is why you can't insert processing in a VCA/DCA group (there is a brand/model exception to this, IIRC, but it's beyond the point of our discussion).

I suggest you do a web search for "Mixing with VCAs".  It was either a Soundcraft or Allen-Heath white paper that describes the advantages and limitations of using this means of grouping.

So to answer the final question, YES, a VCA/DCA preserves any level differences, panning, EQ, etc between inputs.  It applies level change uniformly across all assigned inputs.  It can also control stereo inputs and mono inputs at the same time as it's only a control signal, not an audio signal path.

Finally, there has been a shift in the use of nomenclature - most mixers no longer do "groups" (as in audio groups) they do "mixes" or "buses".  Mixes/buses can be fixed level from channel to the "master mix output" like a legacy group/sub master/audio group, or can be variable like an "Aux bus" for monitors or effects sends.  My first exposure to this was with the Yamaha M-3000 (oy, how I'd like to forget that mixer) and it took a long time for me to finally forget the Ye Olde Wayz of referring to things.

Have fun with this.  Once you get passed the changes in wording and realize that signal flow is pretty much the same (logically at least) you'll have an easier time.

Thanks Tim. Yeah, it is hard especially when you really don't do much of it at all, and don't have the money (no income from work with the equipment). It's really more of a "hobby" for me. Just enough stuff to keep at least a finger into the realm of audio-video work. I just took a look at the x32 compact, and it's an auction with a bit over 19 hours to go. The first 3 faders have no knob and are bent over. That makes me really leery about it. I wish there was one in the $500 - 600 range because it's hard to transition from the physical controls to virtual controls. I downloaded the x32 software to my tablet and am taking a look at it but boy it's weird making such a change!!! It's interesting because when I looked at the info on the DA7, there are no physical group faders as on the analogue mixers. The groups are there, but they are virtual. Now here's a question. What are the pros and cons to using the DCA vs busses?

[Scott Holtzman]

It would appear you are correct Scott. There is one listed at the moment for $775 or so. They are holding value well.

There is one for $650 that has bad channels, the other one below $1000 is a $750 and has three broken faders and missing knobs. 

With the OP's needs he will be fine with the X18 IMHO

[ProSoundWeb Community]