ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Tips for moving to Arena sound  (Read 20416 times)

Lee Douglas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 685
  • 47.662615, -116.756954
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2016, 07:35:43 PM »

I want to do things correctly, but sometimes small things will be bent.

And nobody will make it bigger and bend it more in the other direction than an attorney who smells blood (money) in the water.  This is why you need to cross your T's and dot your lower case J's. 

The venue is being utilized for free and it is it's first time being utilized In such a produced manner.

There's a lot that can go wrong here with lots of finger pointing in the process.  Somebody has got to be looking out for the venues interests and insuring the event.  So you have to look out for your best interests.  They say "stuff" rolls down hill.  Try not to be at the bottom of that hill.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 07:42:48 PM by Lee Douglas »
Logged
This space for rent

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2016, 07:45:51 PM »

Nate...

How much liability insurance do you carry?
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3455
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2016, 08:47:52 PM »

I highly doubt all of you started off doing things the correct way and getting paid correctly for it, etc. Thanks for all the help everyone; I am here to learn.

Starting off doing EVERYTHING correctly? Maybe not. But when we were told that something we were intending to do was wrong, we didn't do it.

But really, make sure that you do the cam connection correctly, if there's no electrician on site. Arc flashes will kill you. And in your discussion with yourself about using the distro or not-- to be candid, I would! I would totally use it if it's able to be connected safely. That way, if you inadvertently trip a breaker, the reset is right there. Plus, unless the wall outlets are well labeled, there's no telling which circuit is where...

Re the gear- that's good that it sounds like this will be a larger system then last year-- but I'm still not convinced it's enough Rig For The Gig. If it works, great-- but I think you might have a slippery slope. For me personally, if a client doesn't have/won't spend the money for the right system, I sit there kicking myself if it sounds like shit. EVEN if the client is OK with it, I still take it personally. :)

I totally get that this is the church industry, and there's always 'no budget' for things- but at the same time, it is our responsibility as production providers to help clients understand what the true cost of producing a show is. If you get a reputation for being cheap- that's where your business will stay. PLEASE make sure the client understands any discounts you might be extending them, and WHY they are getting them-- and that they're for this year only or whatever, so they know why the discounts won't apply on their next show.

STORY TIME! Buddy of mine was working with his company doing a stage at a local marijuana protestival. They were loading in their rig onto the dance music stage, and I stopped by to help for a minute and catch up with him. Being curious, I asked him what they were getting paid for the show, and he told me "Nothing. This festival is all donation and volunteers; no one gets paid for anything!" I looked around at the multiple 70kW+ gennies, cable ramps and power distribution, the porta-potties, the fencing, staging, and the rental radios, and told him "Dude, there's a LOT of money being spent to produce this, and you guys are getting screwed." You have to make sure YOU are included in that budget!

Back to something I said before: even though this venue hasn't hosted an event of this nature in the past, it still might be good to talk to another production company in the area to get their input on the layout... as in someone who has done shows of this size before. Also, if you were to post your location, maybe there is a forum member close by who could help you out as well. You might even be able to toss someone a couple hundred bucks to come in and help you out day of show. I think the collective mind of the forum is in agreement that we WANT you to have the best damn show ever and be a success-- but at the same time, we want to help you avoid more common pitfalls.

-Ray
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2052
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2016, 11:26:07 PM »

Starting off doing EVERYTHING correctly? Maybe not. But when we were told that something we were intending to do was wrong, we didn't do it.

But really, make sure that you do the cam connection correctly, if there's no electrician on site. Arc flashes will kill you. And in your discussion with yourself about using the distro or not-- to be candid, I would! I would totally use it if it's able to be connected safely. That way, if you inadvertently trip a breaker, the reset is right there. Plus, unless the wall outlets are well labeled, there's no telling which circuit is where...

Re the gear- that's good that it sounds like this will be a larger system then last year-- but I'm still not convinced it's enough Rig For The Gig. If it works, great-- but I think you might have a slippery slope. For me personally, if a client doesn't have/won't spend the money for the right system, I sit there kicking myself if it sounds like shit. EVEN if the client is OK with it, I still take it personally. :)

I totally get that this is the church industry, and there's always 'no budget' for things- but at the same time, it is our responsibility as production providers to help clients understand what the true cost of producing a show is. If you get a reputation for being cheap- that's where your business will stay. PLEASE make sure the client understands any discounts you might be extending them, and WHY they are getting them-- and that they're for this year only or whatever, so they know why the discounts won't apply on their next show.

STORY TIME! Buddy of mine was working with his company doing a stage at a local marijuana protestival. They were loading in their rig onto the dance music stage, and I stopped by to help for a minute and catch up with him. Being curious, I asked him what they were getting paid for the show, and he told me "Nothing. This festival is all donation and volunteers; no one gets paid for anything!" I looked around at the multiple 70kW+ gennies, cable ramps and power distribution, the porta-potties, the fencing, staging, and the rental radios, and told him "Dude, there's a LOT of money being spent to produce this, and you guys are getting screwed." You have to make sure YOU are included in that budget!

Back to something I said before: even though this venue hasn't hosted an event of this nature in the past, it still might be good to talk to another production company in the area to get their input on the layout... as in someone who has done shows of this size before. Also, if you were to post your location, maybe there is a forum member close by who could help you out as well. You might even be able to toss someone a couple hundred bucks to come in and help you out day of show. I think the collective mind of the forum is in agreement that we WANT you to have the best damn show ever and be a success-- but at the same time, we want to help you avoid more common pitfalls.

-Ray

Hey thanks Ray for being so candid. I really appreciate that.

I'm definitely not saying I'm going to do something someone said was wrong, but I also don't think everyone just jumped into larger events without a few hiccups and maybe a few i's not dotted here and there... I'm trying to alleviate that as much as possible, by asking what those t's and i's are in order to ascertain their importance.

Insurance...looking into that...yeah yeah yeah don't laugh, we just turned our hobby into a business [read on for more info!] cut me some slack for figuring out the business side of things.

Honestly, I agree. The distro will be a huge life saver in ease of setup and not worrying about tripping breakers. I've been connecting cam locks since I was a wee lad. I'm pretty well versed on their usage. Obviously I haven't dealt with them on huge shows requiring 100+kva or something like that, but I'm confident in my abilities and I know not what to do so I don't die. Heck, I built a 400kv teslacoil for fun when I was 16 :) plenty could go wrong there. Electricity is a deadly thing, but if you know how to handle it it doesn't need to be scary.

Story time! :) We ran professional events for our church for 300$ each, bringing 40-60k worth of gear for a while. Last year we said enough. We're getting paid a nominal sum of money that is worth it to us or we don't do it anymore. The only other production company that I know of in the area said we were in the ball park. So yeah, figured out money things so now it's worth it. I don't desire to upset the market at all except in the quality we bring.

Which leads me to my next point, rig for the gig... I would say that SPL and SQ are very different. I purport that our system will sound great and obtain the nominal listening levels required for the event. I have mapped out the room both on paper and in Danley Direct to ensure coverage is on par with our desired outcome. While I would love 2x more TH118's I can't justify spending that money at this current moment. I agree with you though in that if the gig sounded like crap id kick myself for not doing a better job. But I don't see how having less gear than desired as making the gig sound worse, perhaps quieter, though compression can help with that a bit, but definitely not sound horrible.

Lastly, I'd love the help of a seasoned expert. I'd also gladly pay to rent 2x TH118's and pay for any additional help; Paying load-in/out and setup crews already is a start, but someone who could take upon themselves even part of what I will be doing would be nice.

The good thing is we will be getting in there on Sunday to setup lights in the catwalks so the ground setup should be much easier :)

Thanks guys, much appreciate this. Hopefully this will be of value to others in my position as well!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 12:04:08 AM by Nathan Riddle »
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2016, 12:39:30 AM »

Back in the beginning, just after the roaring 20's, we would do an arena or ballroom of that size with 100 watt tube amplifiers pushing 4-6ea. 4x12" columns. I'm sure you'll do fine with spoken word in that building with what you have. And why can't you tap the house PA? It's spoken word, not the Allman Brothers.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7536
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2016, 01:43:25 AM »


Insurance...looking into that...yeah yeah yeah don't laugh, we just turned our hobby into a business [read on for more info!] cut me some slack for figuring out the business side of things.


I certainly can relate to the hobby vs. business aspect.  I have also done similar productions for a local faith based events.  At that time I didn't have the gear I have now so I simply hired in another company and got the credit for their excellent work.  Cost of business.

As far as the insurance, I can speak to that as I have been running a small businesses my entire life.  Do you own a home?  Have savings?  Assets you care about?  Children to support?  If you do you are, and please excuse my choice of words, insane to take on the liability. 

Personally as I don't carry high limit liability for the sound business and other reasons I carry excess liability insurance.  It's more than an umbrella policy, which typically only bolster the limits of your auto and homeowners coverage.  Excess liability is great for for folks that engage in a wide variety of business and personal activities and don't want a layer of protection above your bailee (sometimes called inland marine) and property coverage. 

You would be surprised who gets named in a suit and the burden is on you to defend yourself.

caveat vendor, caveat operator
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23743
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 07:54:19 AM »

Back in the beginning, just after the roaring 20's, we would do an arena or ballroom of that size with 100 watt tube amplifiers pushing 4-6ea. 4x12" columns. I'm sure you'll do fine with spoken word in that building with what you have. And why can't you tap the house PA? It's spoken word, not the Allman Brothers.

Because the mid-court array points out to the ends and sides.  It will be a big time-incoherent mess when used with the portable system.
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2016, 08:07:44 AM »

Because the mid-court array points out to the ends and sides.  It will be a big time-incoherent mess when used with the portable system.

I think Bob meant just use the house system for the voice, nothing else needed.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 08:11:16 AM by dick rees »
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Nathan Riddle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2052
  • Niceville, FL
    • Nailed Productions
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2016, 09:10:45 AM »

Tilting the speakers may not offer you a ton of benefit. With the general pattern of the speakers, you should be able to get decent coverage.  Delay speakers might be helpful, but require careful adjustment and placement so that they don't make things sound worse.

Good luck!

Forgot to respond, sorry. After tracing out on the plans I felt like a 14* tilt allows for a closer frontal coverage and very little splay onto the walls to help keep reverberations down. In theory this should help keep levels more consistent front-back and reflections down right? How much so I'm not sure.

It is #2 URD Service Entrance cable. If I end up using it I'll need to add a ground so it is operating unbounded at the subpanel. If I purchased flexible conduit would that pass code? Honestly though I have trouble understanding why URD cable isn't better than SO cable... it's UV/underground rated! Probably something to do with how the insulation handles abrasion.

Back in the beginning, just after the roaring 20's, we would do an arena or ballroom of that size with 100 watt tube amplifiers pushing 4-6ea. 4x12" columns. I'm sure you'll do fine with spoken word in that building with what you have. And why can't you tap the house PA? It's spoken word, not the Allman Brothers.

Because the mid-court array points out to the ends and sides.  It will be a big time-incoherent mess when used with the portable system.
I think Bob meant just use the house system for the voice, nothing else needed.

I wish my research papers in school had to do with audio and lighting at events for the roaring 20's rather than the dance styles. I think I would have enjoyed them more  ;D
Part of the service will be spoken word; and part will be a worship set with an opening song. We want the worship set to be like our youth camps fairly loud and rocking I'm thinking 120dbc at the stage progressively less loud as you go back (grown-ups don't like it as loud  :P)

I certainly can relate to the hobby vs. business aspect.  I have also done similar productions for a local faith based events.  At that time I didn't have the gear I have now so I simply hired in another company and got the credit for their excellent work.  Cost of business.

As far as the insurance, I can speak to that as I have been running a small businesses my entire life.  Do you own a home?  Have savings?  Assets you care about?  Children to support?  If you do you are, and please excuse my choice of words, insane to take on the liability. 

Personally as I don't carry high limit liability for the sound business and other reasons I carry excess liability insurance.  It's more than an umbrella policy, which typically only bolster the limits of your auto and homeowners coverage.  Excess liability is great for for folks that engage in a wide variety of business and personal activities and don't want a layer of protection above your bailee (sometimes called inland marine) and property coverage. 

You would be surprised who gets named in a suit and the burden is on you to defend yourself.

caveat vendor, caveat operator

Thanks for that, we did the LLC thing. Shouldn't that protect our personal liability? They could take all of the company's gear but couldn't come after my home. Everything I have read in Florida LLC law seems to indicate I'm (my house, some savings...(though no one could obtain that  ;)) protected.

Back to something I said before: even though this venue hasn't hosted an event of this nature in the past, it still might be good to talk to another production company in the area to get their input on the layout... as in someone who has done shows of this size before. Also, if you were to post your location, maybe there is a forum member close by who could help you out as well. You might even be able to toss someone a couple hundred bucks to come in and help you out day of show. I think the collective mind of the forum is in agreement that we WANT you to have the best damn show ever and be a success-- but at the same time, we want to help you avoid more common pitfalls.

-Ray

Sorry I thought it was on my profile. Niceville, FL. That's what I want too. The collective wisdom and advice of an advanced community to steer me in the correct direction. This time next year the power and cable covers might not be as big of a deal because we have already obtained those :)

I think one of the reasons we're not as concerned as perhaps a large show with lots of liability and contracts, with those aspects is that this venue doesn't get used in a produced way very often/if ever and we don't expect there to be any pressure or anyone asking/looking for things to be done the correct way. That said I still want to do things as appropriately as feasible!

I'm enjoying the intelligent banter everyone!  :D
Logged
I'm just a guy trying to do the next right thing.

This business is for people with too much energy for desk jobs and too much brain for labor jobs. - Scott Helmke

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2016, 10:03:41 AM »

You should be concerned with those to whom your presence and actions might cause injury or death, not your worldly goods. 

Either take responsibility by purchasing liability coverage or do not do this sort of thing, period.

It's one thing to take responsibility for yourself (such as the tie-ins where any mistakes will just kill you) and another thing to be responsible for the lives and well-being of others.

Do it right or don't do it.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Tips for moving to Arena sound
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2016, 10:03:41 AM »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.037 seconds with 24 queries.