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Author Topic: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)  (Read 15001 times)

John L Nobile

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2016, 12:49:25 PM »

No matter what you end up getting (and I think you would really well server with a pair of SM80's from Danley) pickup a pair of ST-132 crank up stands and get them up in the air.  To me that's more important than your actual speaker choice. 

If you run them at the top of their limit of 12-13ft have some sand bags ready for extra stability.

+2

But you will need subs with those.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2016, 01:06:35 PM »

+2

But you will need subs with those.
Only if you plan on playing music pretty loud or deep.

In many cases in corporate events (it depends on what the client expects however), you can add a good bit of boost down around 80Hz and get quite respectable bass out of the SM80.

The reason you can do this is for several reasons.  The cabinet is a sealed cabinet-so the impedance is quite high down at the lower end of the response-just look at the impedance curve on the spec sheet.

 So when you boost it, there is actually not as much power going to the driver as you would normally think.  So the voice coil is fine.

Second is also because it is a sealed box.  It rolls off the low end at half the rate of a ported box.

And also because it is a sealed box-there is a lot of control over the driver-not allowing it to "flop around" a bunch.

It will "tell you" when it has had enough.  You will hear a "knocking sound".  At that point either drop the level a tad or reduce the bass boost a tad.



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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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John L Nobile

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2016, 01:19:12 PM »

Only if you plan on playing music pretty loud or deep.

In many cases in corporate events (it depends on what the client expects however), you can add a good bit of boost down around 80Hz and get quite respectable bass out of the SM80.

The reason you can do this is for several reasons.  The cabinet is a sealed cabinet-so the impedance is quite high down at the lower end of the response-just look at the impedance curve on the spec sheet.

 So when you boost it, there is actually not as much power going to the driver as you would normally think.  So the voice coil is fine.

Second is also because it is a sealed box.  It rolls off the low end at half the rate of a ported box.

And also because it is a sealed box-there is a lot of control over the driver-not allowing it to "flop around" a bunch.

It will "tell you" when it has had enough.  You will hear a "knocking sound".  At that point either drop the level a tad or reduce the bass boost a tad.

I'll be testing that in a couple of weeks. We have a comedian in a 10k Sq ft room with over 600 ppl booked. Numbers went up so we had to move out of our showroom.
I was going to bring my subs over but I'll leave them where they are. 80 hz is fine for dinner and intro music.
SM80s on sticks and SMLPMs for any needed fill.

Thanks for saving me some work Ivan. If I do need the subs they're just across the hall.
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Jonathan Zitelman

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2016, 01:34:38 PM »

I'll be testing that in a couple of weeks. We have a comedian in a 10k Sq ft room with over 600 ppl booked. Numbers went up so we had to move out of our showroom.
I was going to bring my subs over but I'll leave them where they are. 80 hz is fine for dinner and intro music.
SM80s on sticks and SMLPMs for any needed fill.

Thanks for saving me some work Ivan. If I do need the subs they're just across the hall.

I would be interested to hear how this turns out.  I've got a couple months before I'm looking to purchase, so some real world feedback on this setup would be extremely helpful.  -JZ
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2016, 01:45:14 PM »

I'll be testing that in a couple of weeks. We have a comedian in a 10k Sq ft room with over 600 ppl booked. Numbers went up so we had to move out of our showroom.
I was going to bring my subs over but I'll leave them where they are. 80 hz is fine for dinner and intro music.
SM80s on sticks and SMLPMs for any needed fill.

Thanks for saving me some work Ivan. If I do need the subs they're just across the hall.
Put a high pass around 50Hz-60Hz and then add a bump around 80Hz that is about .5 to .6 octaves wide with a gain of 12dB ish and see how that sounds.  You could go to +15 depending on how loud you need it.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Guy Graham

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2016, 03:47:00 PM »

Mike, I actually started looking at conventional full-way cabinets and had several individuals direct me this way.  Which is why I followed up here.  I have not completely ruled out sticking with conventional speakers.  I wouldn't mind running some Nexo PS15s or d&b Q10s, but they seem to push the budget more than these single array cabinets.  If you have other suggestions, I'm always open and willing to research.

I have yet to figure out a great solution for sight lines either way...

-JZ

When you look at the cost of a single RCF HDL10 or 20 line array element - you are not accounting for the proper flyware and other required rigging equipment needed.

In the context of an 8 (or more) element per side array, it makes sense. The only folks I know using these boxes profitably (amongst the other inventory in their business) already have both the equipment and experience to fly loudspeaker arrays, so the extra cost of RCF bumpers etc is minimal - relative to all other expenses.

What I really don't get about folks wanting to fly a few cheap line array elements in a dash, is the sightlines reason. As Mike Pyle mentioned - a horizontal array of point source boxes with tight pattern control are much more appropriate for the task.

RCF make a 22.5° by 60° powered speaker, the TTP5-A. It costs more per box than the HDLs, but has similar versatility to much more expensive solutions such as L-Acoustics Arcs, and can be arrayed both horizontally and vertically as required (which JBL VRX or QSC KLA cannot, and it amazes me how many folks pay no attention to this limitation).

I can sympathize with rider oriented providers who are asked to supply line arrays. However I don't know anyone who jumped from 15/2" Behringers to line array products, and I suspect there's good reason for that.

There are various high quality point source solutions, that would allow you to move up several levels in one fell swoop.

In my market (admittedly more common in Europe) a ground-stacked rig such as the KV2 ES system would be a very rider-friendly upgrade, that doesn't require sophisticated operator knowledge. It's not cheap, but can cover a variety of indoor and outdoor spaces - simply by adjusting the volume control, and the position of each stack.

Other good value solutions such as Danley SM80s over TH118s have already been mentioned. On the second hand market there are older yet perfectly serviceable products, such as d&b C7 + C subs, Nexo Alpha / AlphaE, Martin W8 / W8C / H3, or Turbosound Floods / Aspect 500, plus suitable subs.

All these are gonna cost more than a few RCF HDL boxes, plus 8001/3/4/5/6 subs - but won't require the additional infrastructure that even a ground-stacked dash array needs.

The logistical requirements of boxes that are designed to stack on the ground, can be as minimal as ratchet straps - and will allow such products to perform very well. Putting a couple of line array boxes over subs inevitably costs more, without the same reward - as you will not extract the full performance potential.

If your customers are genuinely requesting small arrays of line source elements, then it makes sense to invest in that - assuming you have a solid business plan, that can make any and all investment profitable.

If all you need to move your business to the next level, is to  improve on the equipment you currently have - maybe think before you potentially overreach, via a system purchase that has significantly higher buy-in costs over the attractively priced line array elements you won't be able to maximize the performance potential of...


Sent from my GT-I8160

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John L Nobile

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Re: Speakers for corporate A/V (VRX vs HDL-20A)
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2016, 04:00:16 PM »

Put a high pass around 50Hz-60Hz and then add a bump around 80Hz that is about .5 to .6 octaves wide with a gain of 12dB ish and see how that sounds.  You could go to +15 depending on how loud you need it.

I'll try that on Monday. The SM80s are being used as sidewash so all I have to do is spin them towards FOH.
BTW,  we really like them for sidewash as well as main PA for other rooms.
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Jonathan Zitelman

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Re: Speakers for corporate style A/V
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2016, 08:36:40 PM »

After going through Guy's response, and reading a few other old thread's (with particular attention to Ray's responses), I'm wondering if it wouldn't be more beneficial to step back to my original situation, before I was directed to the dash systems and before my OP.  A few of y'all have already given me some direction on trap boxes, and I actually had never heard about Danley's before, so hopefully with all the collective experience I can get things narrowed down a bit.

Essentially, I'm looking to purchase a system to cover typically a 100'x100' room, approximately 400 people classroom style.  Active speakers are preferred (but passive isn't out of the question); as Ray noticed, it's typically a one man setup (while my other guy sets cameras/video), so weight matters; ground stacks also preferred.  Primary events are voice only, but I do have the occasional praise band with church groups.  Budget is 10-15k (but if I can keep everything under 12, that would allow for a console upgrade as well).  As mentioned, I've been using 2-ways with subs, and some side fills (or lips fills) in wider rooms (up to 150').  A system within that budget, and maybe some upgraded side fills down the road would be very helpful.

I'm not trying to pass the work/research off, but with all the suggestions in just the last day, my head is swimming to say the least...

(Similar situation to this post, but needing to add subs and slightly bigger budget - http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153217.msg1405897.html#msg1405897)
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Scott Carneval

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Re: Speakers for corporate style A/V
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2016, 09:49:11 PM »

I own a systems integration (install) business, but we're in the process of starting a production division and are currently negotiating a couple hotel contracts. I plan to use a combination of SM100, SM80, and SBH20LF column speakers. The columns have a 120ºw x 20ºv pattern, and should cover the room you described very nicely. They are 60" tall, so the sight-lines may not work for every application. But they're also only 9" wide, and will disappear into many sets if you place them at the back of the stage. Spread them wide and they will be far enough away from the mics that feedback won't be an issue unless you have a panel with many open lav mics. Even then, a Dugan or other auto-mixer should help eliminate any feedback.

You could get a pair of columns and a pair of SM80's, plus amps and processing, and still be within your budget. If you have to pick only one I would start with the SM80's, but the SBH20LF would work very well for many corporate setups.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Speakers for corporate style A/V
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 10:25:45 PM »

I own a systems integration (install) business, but we're in the process of starting a production division and are currently negotiating a couple hotel contracts. I plan to use a combination of SM100, SM80, and SBH20LF column speakers. The columns have a 120ºw x 20ºv pattern, and should cover the room you described very nicely. They are 60" tall, so the sight-lines may not work for every application. But they're also only 9" wide, and will disappear into many sets if you place them at the back of the stage. Spread them wide and they will be far enough away from the mics that feedback won't be an issue unless you have a panel with many open lav mics. Even then, a Dugan or other auto-mixer should help eliminate any feedback.

You could get a pair of columns and a pair of SM80's, plus amps and processing, and still be within your budget. If you have to pick only one I would start with the SM80's, but the SBH20LF would work very well for many corporate setups.

I had never noticed the SBH20LF before, what an interesting form factor.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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www.ghostav.rocks

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Speakers for corporate style A/V
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2016, 10:25:45 PM »


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