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Author Topic: Song suggestions for tuning PA  (Read 15274 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 04:02:35 PM »



This is why I don't worry about whether a speaker sounds pretty or not. It's subjective and superficial. Does the speaker sound right is the question? By right I mean does it sound the way it is supposed to?
Warning-Topic swerve

What is interesting to me is that many people when listening to speakers listen to the tonal balance (something that can be corrected by eq)-RATHER than what they SHOULD be listening to.

Some people like more treble-some like more bass-that is not all that important-unless you will not be using any eq on the system.  Most people use eq of some sort.

ALso remember that some demos use eq that is boosting the cabinets in areas that they are not "quite so happy" and when turned up they will start to fall apart.  But they sound nice at lower levels. 

Actual show levels are important.

What IS important is things like natural freq response/extension, evenness of coverage, does it sound the same within the coverage pattern, does it get loud enough while staying clean enough, how well it holds up over distance  and so forth.

Tonal balance is something that is easily adjusted by eq (unless it doesn't sound the same in all seats-which nothing will fix).

WALK AROUND listening for differences, close your eyes and see if you can tell how far away it is.

If it is easy to tell how far away it is, then that is a hint that the speaker is sending your ears "clues", due to defects in the design.

If it is hard to tell how far the sound is away-then that means that the speaker is "better behaved" and will hold up over distance better.

Consistency in coverage is one of the biggest things to listen for-NOT the actual tonality.

OF course some speakers just sound like crap-and no eq will fix that.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jay Barracato

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2016, 05:32:13 PM »

I just love it when a visiting tech walks up to my system which has a flat 31 band eq on it, proceeds to adjust all 31 bands by differing amounts, has the band sounding great, and then during the break straight playback sounds horrible.

The second step to the " can this be fixed by eq" thought is "where in the chain should that eq be".

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Jay Barracato

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2016, 05:43:30 PM »

I just love it when a visiting tech walks up to my system which has a flat 31 band eq on it, proceeds to adjust all 31 bands by differing amounts, has the band sounding great, and then during the break straight playback sounds horrible.

The second step to the " can this be fixed by eq" thought is "where in the chain should that eq be".

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But not everything can be fixed by eq.  In many cases it just makes it worse.

In your cases he was "counteracting" the eq he did on the pa with the channel eqs.  NOT a good idea
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jay Barracato

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2016, 06:14:06 PM »

But not everything can be fixed by eq.  In many cases it just makes it worse.

In your cases he was "counteracting" the eq he did on the pa with the channel eqs.  NOT a good idea

Yep my point exactly.

If I walked up to a nice neutral pa I would have made all of those changes at the channel level.

In the heat of a show I might grab a system eq fader but then I would immediately start looking for the channel(s) it would be needed on.

Ivan used the term "fighting the pa" which I also is a lot. Before you can use eq as a mix element, you have to be not using it to fight the pa. As Luke said much of that OK s in system setup.

I remember one big bluegrass festival watching the system guy fight to cram the instruments into what they should be. The result was a constantly changing tonal mishmash. I stepped up and got my band going and he told me I had the best sounding banjo he had heard during the festival. I showed him a basically zeroed out channel. Gain, push the fader up. That's how you deal with 6 minute changeovers.

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Jay Barracato

Steve Garris

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 06:48:04 PM »

Thanks everyone! There are some great suggestions here.

I generally don't have problems, but it's been a while since I've had a CD player available, and again my mp3 Spotify stuff sounds lame. I will find a few songs and get them save in CD format for setting the tonal quality, although Luke's comment on just using the band is how I've been doing it.

My PRX system is well processed, and I rarely have to do much to the main EQ. I've also found that I get far better results using the parametric eq's only. I often make speaker placement changes during sound check, but sometimes we're limited to a quick line check, then downbeat. Because I'm mixing wirelessly on an iPad, there's no FOH position, which I love. I'm everywhere in the room, standing, sitting, on axis, off axis. This ability has improved my mixing substantially - Every single band I work for loves me. But I will confess Ivan, sometimes I feel like I'm fighting the system just a little bit.

I have been reading up on Smaart, which looks very interesting and I can see using it due to its low cost and portability. I would just have to purchase the software and mic, so not that expensive. But is it really going to help me when I'm using a matched PRX or SRX system with built in processing?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 07:01:41 PM »

Yep my point exactly.

If I walked up to a nice neutral pa I would have made all of those changes at the channel level.


During my install years, we never put a graphic at FOH.

All system adjustments were done in the DSP (or analog) in the amp rack.

I would tune the system to a flat response (a white canvas to paint on) and any adjustments would be done on a channel by channel basis.

And this worked quite well.

One of the best "unsaid" compliments I got 11yrs ago at the NSCA caper/concert.

A "Band most everybody knows" was playing.

The speaker manufacturer for the show hired me to do the system alignment.

The band was running late and we had lots of hands (full sail guys/girls) and I setup my multi mic setup.

I had them drop the system and rehang it 4 times before I got the coverage I wanted.

The FOH guy had his own full setup and he set his graphics for flat before starting soundcheck.

At the end of the show there was only a 3dB cut at one freq.

Nobody noticed except me-but I guess he was happy and could do whatever he wanted on his ANALOG console.  So no more processing on the outputs other than the outboard graphic.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Robert Lunceford

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2016, 01:56:29 AM »

Tune the rig and then for rig tweeking try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlMq8DImlTI

Pat Boone beat Paul Anka to the punch by about 7 years. Pat Boone In A Metal Mood: No More Mr Nice Guy was released in 1997.
Incredible recording and big band arrangements of well known rock classics.
Listening to these arrangements makes it apparent how stupid the lyrics to most of these songs really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgeevBbNLK8
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2016, 02:06:16 AM »

Pat Boone beat Paul Anka to the punch by about 7 years. Pat Boone In A Metal Mood: No More Mr Nice Guy was released in 1997.
Incredible recording and big band arrangements of well known rock classics.
Listening to these arrangements makes it apparent how stupid the lyrics to most of these songs really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgeevBbNLK8

A good Nelson Riddle-style arrangement somehow makes Metallica less inane.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 02:12:14 AM »

Tune the rig and then for rig tweeking try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlMq8DImlTI

Paul Anka - the kind of delivery and tone Diamond Dave later wished he had but would never be able to achieve.

I think this is my new walk out song, I've been playing Will It Go Round In Circles for a long time...

In a previous century my most-played walk out was Monty Python's 'Medical Love Song.'
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Merlijn van Veen

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Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 04:04:38 AM »

But is it really going to help me when I'm using a matched PRX or SRX system with built in processing?

There's this increasing tendency to resort to technology to fix upstream problems.

Tuning is the icing on the cake but, only works once you've aimed and splayed your speakers properly.

It's like realty "location, location, location" which constitutes 90% of my job as a sound system designer.

So how are you gonna aim and splay something that's:

A ) Invisible - the no-brainer

B) Inaudible - because we literally can't occupy every seat in the house simultaneously and hear what everybody else is hearing

C) Elusive - a singular sensory audio stream that can't be paused. Our echoic memory (sensory register), the ability to maintain a sonic impression, lasts only 4 seconds up to as little as 20 seconds without interruption. So there's a real chance by the time we arrive at the edge of the seating plane or balcony our frame of reference has been compromised.

That is why we need ears on sticks.

But, the analyzer only produces scribbly lines. Data that's meaningless without context. So we need to be able to explain why those so called traces look the way they do without resorting to (video) smoothing for better readability. Radiology for sound systems if you will and the analyzer doesn't do the interpretational part for us.

This is when most of us consider reading a book and/or attend a seminar.

Seneca mentioned around BC "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity". In other words if you wanna increase the chances of a successful production you better come prepared. But in order to prepare you need to know what to expect. Valid expectations based on physics and (psycho)-acoustics explaining the entire transmission path from source to receiver.

The analyzer for verification purposes solely, has enabled me to achieve consistent results from one venue to the next, effectively rendering the guessing part negligible.

I wholeheartedly recommend using it because I'm convinced that consistent and repeatable results together with people skills will get you the next job while simultaneously providing you with a constant frame of reference to develop and improve your mixing skills.


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« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 04:11:50 AM by Merlijn van Veen »
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Song suggestions for tuning PA
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 04:04:38 AM »


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