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Author Topic: Article on sub levels  (Read 12767 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2016, 01:11:13 AM »

One of the best shows I ever heard was on a XL4 run "cold".

I'm sure the reason he did this was to put faders in the high resolution portion of the strip.  Scovi does this as well, sometimes by routing through subgroups for level offset.

What, no Secret Sauce of the Red Light?  Dude, what are you smokin'?  /satire

35 years ago I learned that a red light may, or may not indicate clipping.  If I couldn't "hear" the red light, it didn't matter.  Then I mixed on some consoles where you could "hear" red when it was just barely pink...  Oy.

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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

frank kayser

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 03:30:08 PM »

Interesting read. While I do like my subs I find sub levels at concerts are sometimes too loud

http://www.audiotechnology.com.au/wp/index.php/time-to-shelve-the-low-end
Refreshing.  I'm guessing my technique/taste isn't that far off, after all.  I've always thought I'd been too "sub shy", given the amount of attention given to subs here and elsewhere.  I've attended so many gigs ruined (IMO) by either overdone subs, or poorly tuned low-bass -"blooming" bass, thundering kick, and muddy, unintelligible vocals. 


When I first started mixing, I made up a "frequency chart" of various instruments, and vocal ranges, based on 1/3 octave eq bands, and came to the conclusion the "mud" range was between 200 and about 320hz.  "Honk" and "boxy" ranges are nearby/overlap/interact, so one has to be careful.  Very sensitive in that area, and the "suck knob" seems to be directly attached there.
Great minds run in the same circles?  ;) ;D
Not being a great mind, at least I'm running in circles that sometimes overlap a bit.


frank



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Keith Broughton

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 04:21:26 PM »



I'm sure the reason he did this was to put faders in the high resolution portion of the strip.
Could the same not be accomplished by turning down the master(s)?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 08:16:09 PM »

Could the same not be accomplished by turning down the master(s)?

In Scovi's case, almost every PA output is from a matrix out so L/C/R may not have give the control needed.  You'd have to ask him, though.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Bob Leonard

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 10:25:12 PM »

Refreshing.  I'm guessing my technique/taste isn't that far off, after all.  I've always thought I'd been too "sub shy", given the amount of attention given to subs here and elsewhere.  I've attended so many gigs ruined (IMO) by either overdone subs, or poorly tuned low-bass -"blooming" bass, thundering kick, and muddy, unintelligible vocals. 


When I first started mixing, I made up a "frequency chart" of various instruments, and vocal ranges, based on 1/3 octave eq bands, and came to the conclusion the "mud" range was between 200 and about 320hz.  "Honk" and "boxy" ranges are nearby/overlap/interact, so one has to be careful.  Very sensitive in that area, and the "suck knob" seems to be directly attached there.
Great minds run in the same circles?  ;) ;D
Not being a great mind, at least I'm running in circles that sometimes overlap a bit.


frank





Most of us older guys adhere to old school technique's. To many subs seldom mean the mix will be good. I've always thought some people will over compensate with the low end in an effort to cover up their shit mix. To me the mix is good when ALL of the instruments have a voice of their own that can be clearly heard.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 03:01:25 AM »

To me the mix is good when ALL of the instruments have a voice of their own that can be clearly heard.
This is exactly right.  Sometimes I hear a  mix and despite there being a lot going on, it's hard to tell what I am actually listening to.

35 years ago I learned that a red light may, or may not indicate clipping
In a properly designed piece of equipment, it shouldn't mean clipping internally but should serve as a warning that you might clip something further down the line.  It would be foolish to design something with no more headroom than the clip light point.
If I remember correctly, the Peavey Mk IV mixer I used to have 25 years ago claimed in excess of +18dB headroom (that's the only example I can remember).

 
Steve.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 03:06:20 AM by Steve M Smith »
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John L Nobile

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 08:36:30 AM »

Most of us older guys adhere to old school technique's. To many subs seldom mean the mix will be good. I've always thought some people will over compensate with the low end in an effort to cover up their shit mix. To me the mix is good when ALL of the instruments have a voice of their own that can be clearly heard.

Is there a point when the mix is too loud to clearly hear each instrument? Or actually hear more than one or 2?
Or is it that I've heard too many loud and bad mixes lately?
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Joseph D. Macry

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 10:23:08 AM »

Most of us older guys adhere to old school technique's. To many subs seldom mean the mix will be good. I've always thought some people will over compensate with the low end in an effort to cover up their shit mix. To me the mix is good when ALL of the instruments have a voice of their own that can be clearly heard.

Amen to that. First criteria in judging a mix is "Can I hear everything?"
One symptom of over-powered subs is when you hear the lowest notes of the bass guitar but not the middle and higher bass notes.
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Joseph Macry,
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Jason Raboin

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 11:40:01 AM »

I heard Howard mix Sting in France last summer.  It was stunning.  One of the best sounding shows I have ever heard.  I was mixing on the same rig (K2) in the same venue the next day.  At load in the system tech told me he had a few starting points, with differing levels of thickness and sub.  I asked to start where Howard had started, which was in the thinest setting - around .55 in Array Morphing.  I had a very very good show.
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Jason Raboin
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »

I tend to disagree with the "clearly hear everything" and would propose 'clearly hear the primary elements of the music'.  That is, when I hear people trying to get everything out in the mix it often turns into a constant jumble.  Music is seldom arranged or recorded and released with every instrument having equal prominence.  Typically there are a few elements that are out front by varying degrees with the rest being a homogenized "pad" underneath.  There needs to be a rhythmic and harmonic underpinning, the primary voice whether vocal or instrumental soloist, and then the arranged "parts" that make the music interesting and keep it from being a drone of a bunch of things mashed together.  The "parts" might be background vocals, horn parts, or any other instrument jumping in and out in contrast to the main voice.  Then there is usually a texture of some combination of instruments underneath it all.  This is what arrangers and producers do when recording a song.  And bands need to learn how to do when performing them.  I'm fortunate to have play with folks who understood this and it would drive us nuts when FOH people would actively try to undo things and get "everything clearly" into the mix as we had already arranged the songs and had various people jumping out with a part and then fading back into the pad at different points.

To the point of the OP, any "parts" as well as the lead voice should not be obscured by overcooking the bass or anything else.  There should be a balance between the rhythmic pulse, the lead voice, and the parts so that each serves it's musical purpose.  As does the pad underneath glueing it all together.
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Re: Article on sub levels
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 01:54:39 PM »


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