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Author Topic: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260  (Read 5991 times)

Joel Gamez

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Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« on: January 15, 2016, 12:58:59 am »

I am located in South Miami FL and would like to acquire the service of someone very proficient with the DBX DriveRack260  to configure the 260 and tune my system instructing me in how to properly maximize the potential of my equipment.

Speaker components:
18" 18sound lw1400 (4)
15" 18sound mb700 (4)
PRV 280ti compression driver (4)
PRV 350ti bullet tweeters (4)

Amps:
Crown 6002 Lows
Crown 4002 Mids
QSC GX7      Highs

Now I'd like to know several things one is I've never used the sub harmonics and should I. Two what settings should I have for I/O. Three, what crossover points should I have and what filters should I use for the given slopes. Four, how do I set my limiters so I'm protected especially on my highs amp that's too much wattage for my highs. I also read that I should to avoid blowing my highs, should wire them in series, is that so? What other features on my DBX260 should I be concerned with delay, asfs, compression? The DBX260 is an awesome unit but I feel I will never be able to unleash the full potential of it for the lack of knowledge Itll take me a long time by bits and pieces of Intel that take forever to acquire through these post I have my eyes set already on the dbx360 and I haven't even begun to understand fully the potential of all features of the 260 I want to know the why to things and that's why I'm in search of a DBX260 mentor aka Tutor to contact me and conclude all the mysteries and questions I have, and so I know it's complex over the phone to me seems like a better platform than hundreds of posts in a forum, also I don't want anyone to get it twisted I'm not complaining about my dbx260 I see it as even though I know my settings are probably all jacked up I know I'm not where I need to be with it but I'm not where I used to be either with out it thank God for that and you guys for the platform to vent about it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 10:11:10 pm by Joel Gamez »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 01:44:06 am »

I am located in South Miami FL and would like to acquire the service of someone very proficient with the DBX DriveRack260  to configure the 260 and tune my system instructing me in how to properly maximize the potential of my equipment.

Speaker components:
18" 18sound lw1400 (4)
15" 18sound mb700 (4)
PRV 280ti compression driver (4)
PRV 350ti bullet tweeters (4)

Amps:
Crown 6002 Lows
Crown 4002 Mids
QSC GX7      Highs

Now I'd like to know several things one is I've never used the sub harmonics and should I. Two what settings should I have for I/O. Three, what crossover points should I have and what filters should I use for the given slopes. Four, how do I set my limiters so I'm protected especially on my highs amp that's too much wattage for my highs. I also read that I should to avoid blowing my highs, should wire them in series, is that so? What other features on my DBX260 should I be concerned with delay, asfs, compression? The DBX260 is an awesome unit but I feel I will never be able to unleash the full potential of it for the lack of knowledge Itll take me a long time by bits and pieces of Intel that take forever to acquire through these post I have my eyes set already on the dbx360 and I haven't even begun to understand fully the potential of all features of the 260 I want to know the why to things and that's why I'm in search of a DBX260 mentor aka Tutor to contact me and conclude all the mysteries and questions I have, and so I know it's complex over the phone to me seems like a better platform than hundreds of posts in a forum, also I don't want anyone to get it twisted I'm not complaining about my dbx260 I see it as even though I know my settings are probably all jacked up I know I'm not where I need to be with it but I'm not where I used to be either with out it thank God for that and you guys for the platform to vent about it.

Please change your name to your real name per the forum rules.  The requirement is clearly stated when you join and is on every page so I have to admit I am baffled as to how it is so often overlooked.

Once you correct this I am sure someone in the South Florida market will write back.

I am going to be in Hollywood at the end of the month, I don't think I will have a free day I am at the Fort Lauderdale Convention Center and staying by the Hard Rock casino on Sterling Rd.  How far is that from your venue.  I might just be able to pop by and give you some pointers.

Good Luck
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Joel Gamez

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 03:28:49 pm »

I appreciate the attempted help but your in Broward County and I'm closer to homestead I don't mind paypaling anyone for the instructions either but yeah having one in person would be awesome also.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 07:43:56 pm »

I appreciate the attempted help but your in Broward County and I'm closer to homestead I don't mind paypaling anyone for the instructions either but yeah having one in person would be awesome also.
It could be next to impossible to tell somebody over the phone or internet how to properly tune a system-unless the person with the system could do good measurements and transfer that information.

In person is the only way to do it properly/accurately.

And that "assumes" the person doing the tuning actually understands what they are doing.

MANY people own Smaart (or similar) but very few actually understand what the traces are saying or telling and even less about what to do about it-or what you CANNOT do about.

A lot of people try to "correct" something that is on the screen, but in reality they are just making it worse-but it "looks pretty" on the screen.

The screen can tell you what the end result problem is-but NOT what is the cause or what to do about it.

That takes a deeper understanding.
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Joel Gamez

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 02:30:48 am »

I'm not looking for someone to do this for me I know it's not rocket science but someone that knows a DRIVERACK260 can read my setup examine the specs and point out the things I should cover. I myself pointed out the things that to me would make a difference now imagine someone who knows this unit like the palm of their hand can bring forth its full potential. Guys that own the DRIVERACK260 know what I'm referring to. This unit is like the Bible just when you think you've understood it you really don't and the manual is limited in breaking down its info especially to the layman. It's so unique in its own way because every setup and system is different. And what works for me wont work for the next man. That's why I came to this forum because I was told if there were a place to find this DRIVERACK260 guru it would be here, let's see.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 04:33:41 am »

I'm not looking for someone to do this for me I know it's not rocket science but someone that knows a DRIVERACK260 can read my setup examine the specs and point out the things I should cover. I myself pointed out the things that to me would make a difference now imagine someone who knows this unit like the palm of their hand can bring forth its full potential. Guys that own the DRIVERACK260 know what I'm referring to. This unit is like the Bible just when you think you've understood it you really don't and the manual is limited in breaking down its info especially to the layman. It's so unique in its own way because every setup and system is different. And what works for me wont work for the next man. That's why I came to this forum because I was told if there were a place to find this DRIVERACK260 guru it would be here, let's see.

I was just being friendly and offering to stop in and see if something was glaringly wrong.  Can't go to Collier County (or is it still Dade), in any case it's not doable for me.

The way you set expectations is a bit scary, there is nothing about the 260 that needs  Zen level of skills like FIR tools MATLABS stuff.  That's rocket science.

A processor can't repair a design mistake, if the system is underpowered, the room untreated and hot, speakers in the wrong place, too many or not enough speakers etc.  Those sins can't be whitewashed.

Check the math on the delay settings, the sanity of the crossover set points, any EQ that is overtly cut or boosted.  Wide Q's on the EQ's.  Simplicity is your friend.

Good luck with your project,  be leery of snake oil salesman.  Your mileage will always vary.

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Kevin McDonough

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2016, 06:14:32 am »

hey

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the points people are making in their replies.

Speaker crossover unit like the Driverack aren't especially complicated and all generally do the same thing. Obviously there is a range of prices available and many will have extra features such as FIR processing or all pass filters, extra bands of EQ that aren't available on less expensive units, but at the end of the day they largely do the same thing. This isn't the part of your system settings that you need help with.

By far the more difficult part is knowing what the settings should be in the first place. It's not simply a case of looking at a few spec sheets and knowing what the crossover points should be set at and how the limiters should be set, far from it.

In order to do this properly, someone with sound measurement software like Smaart/systune/etc etc or even just the free RoomEQ Wizard, and who has enough experience to actually know how to use these and what the measurement graphs they generate mean, would have to be there in person to measure everything with you.

Only by doing that would they be able to see what frequencies your speakers are suited to producing, where to set the crossover points, what delays would need to be set to get things into phase at crossover points, etc etc.

Its the gathering and deciding of all of that information that is the hard part; requiring part technical know-how, part skill, and part art and experience.

Once you have all of that, actually inserting those settings into the Driverack is the easy bit.

Hope that helps

Kev
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William Schnake

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2016, 08:55:45 am »

I'm not looking for someone to do this for me I know it's not rocket science ... That's why I came to this forum because I was told if there were a place to find this DRIVERACK260 guru it would be here, let's see.
I have no dog in this hunt and haven't used a 260 in several years however, I can tell you that I would never tune a system that I couldn't hear while I was making changes.  Every speaker and power amp sounds different.  IMO you have to be able to listen to the source in order to get the correct result.  This is not a strict science it is combination of art and science. 

My advice, go to a larger local company and ask them to help you out.  Offer to pay them for their time and have a great sounding system as the result.

Bill
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2016, 11:10:22 am »

I'm not looking for someone to do this for me I know it's not rocket science but someone that knows a DRIVERACK260 can read my setup examine the specs and point out the things I should cover. I myself pointed out the things that to me would make a difference now imagine someone who knows this unit like the palm of their hand can bring forth its full potential. Guys that own the DRIVERACK260 know what I'm referring to. This unit is like the Bible just when you think you've understood it you really don't and the manual is limited in breaking down its info especially to the layman. It's so unique in its own way because every setup and system is different. And what works for me wont work for the next man. That's why I came to this forum because I was told if there were a place to find this DRIVERACK260 guru it would be here, let's see.
There is nothing special in the 260 (except for some limitations that other units don't have).

It is NOT just the 260, but ALSO the speakers that it is hooked up to that HAVE to be considered.

Your best bet is to find somebody with exactly the same processor-amps and speakers that you have-and that had a proper alignment done.

This will not be easy.  But could happen.  Just think about the odds and variables you have there.

Everything acts differently in different DSPs-even in the same manufacture line.

So the numbers don't transfer.   Sometimes they do-other times part of the numbers transfer-sometimes not at all.

And the DSP has to be (as the name implies) TUNED to the speakers that it is being used with.  As soon as you change speakers-everything changes.

For what you are looking for-hiring somebody who KNOWS what they are doing to come to you (or you bring your system to them) is the BEST way to get a good tuning.

Even if they don't "know" the 260, that is no big deal.  It is a simple DSP.

What IS important is that they know the measurement system they are using and UNDERSTAND what it is telling them.

That is about 100,000% greater importance than "knowing the 260".

Anybody can learn their way around the 260 in a very short time-assuming they are already familiar with DSPs in general.

If they don't know their way around DSPs, then I suggest you look for somebody else.

All they need to find out is what the 260 is doing differently than what they already know.

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Joel Gamez

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 12:54:58 pm »

I was just being friendly and offering to stop in and see if something was glaringly wrong.  Can't go to Collier County (or is it still Dade), in any case it's not doable for me.

The way you set expectations is a bit scary, there is nothing about the 260 that needs  Zen level of skills like FIR tools MATLABS stuff.  That's rocket science.

A processor can't repair a design mistake, if the system is underpowered, the room untreated and hot, speakers in the wrong place, too many or not enough speakers etc.  Those sins can't be whitewashed.

Check the math on the delay settings, the sanity of the crossover set points, any EQ that is overtly cut or boosted.  Wide Q's on the EQ's.  Simplicity is your friend.

Good luck with your project,  be leery of snake oil salesman.  Your mileage will always vary.

Thank you Scott really, Collier is further NW of Dade County I do appreciate your help and man I wish I could ask you to stop by but we're so close but yet so far. I mentioned in the original post about my highs I blew them over the holidays for what I know to be acouple of reasons one I upgraded my amp rack and steped up my amps I ended up with a qsc gx7 as my highs amp. I know its too much wattage but what can I do. I now have the gain at about 30% and I suspect my wiring was also wrong. I read somewhere that you should not wire a horn driver parallel with tweeter straight to the amp. Does this mean I should rewire them in Series and if so they both have caps that come with them do I remove them or just wire in series regardless??
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 03:17:06 pm »

I mentioned in the original post about my highs I blew them over the holidays for what I know to be acouple of reasons one I upgraded my amp rack and steped up my amps I ended up with a qsc gx7 as my highs amp. I know its too much wattage but what can I do. I now have the gain at about 30% and I suspect my wiring was also wrong. I read somewhere that you should not wire a horn driver parallel with tweeter straight to the amp. Does this mean I should rewire them in Series and if so they both have caps that come with them do I remove them or just wire in series regardless??
There are different things that can blow up drivers.  Over power is one-over excursion is another.

The size of the power amp is just thing.  But DO NOT THINK that turning down the gain on the amp reduces the power!!!!!!!!  IT DOES NOT.

You can turn the amp almost all the way down and it can still produce full output.

Did you have any limiters set?  If so-how did you set them?

There is nothing wrong with wiring a HF driver directly to the amp.  Whoever told you this is wrong.

Wiring them in series will reduce the voltage going to each one-but they will also be quieter at the same time.

A cap in series can help reduce the low freq-but the crossover in the DSP should do that.

A cap will introduce a 90* phase shift-which can possibly make it harder to do a proper alignment in the DSP.

But that also depends on the size of the cap-the impedance of the driver-the crossover freq in the DSP and so forth.

You have to understand all of this to do it "right".

GUESSING is NOT the way to go about it.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 03:21:55 pm »

I just looked at your equipment list and it raises some question.

How exactly are you wiring/running your system currently?

You have 4 different drivers listed-but you list your amps as 3 way.
Are running the tweeters and compression drivers off of the same amp?

Or are you running all the cone woofers off of the same passband?

This can make a big difference in how things are wired up.

If the tweeters and compression drivers are off of the same amp-then you need the caps on the tweeters.

However-unless you low pass the compression drivers, you could end up with LESS output at some of the high freq due to cancellations between the tweeters and compression driver-due to the phase difference.

IT DEPENDS A LOT in this case.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 07:08:46 pm »

Thank you Scott really, Collier is further NW of Dade County I do appreciate your help and man I wish I could ask you to stop by but we're so close but yet so far. I mentioned in the original post about my highs I blew them over the holidays for what I know to be acouple of reasons one I upgraded my amp rack and steped up my amps I ended up with a qsc gx7 as my highs amp. I know its too much wattage but what can I do. I now have the gain at about 30% and I suspect my wiring was also wrong. I read somewhere that you should not wire a horn driver parallel with tweeter straight to the amp. Does this mean I should rewire them in Series and if so they both have caps that come with them do I remove them or just wire in series regardless??

Certainly you can hook the horn to the amp assuming the impedance is within the amps capabilities.

The cap should not be required in a biamp configuration.  A capacitor in series with the voice coil forms a simple LC network, the most basic of crossovers.  Redundant to the drive rack.  These are audio basics you should understand before wiring up a complex bi-amp'd system.

I don't remember if the 260 has a voltage limiter option.  If it does you could at least calculate the limiter setting, protecting your tweeters.

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Joel Gamez

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 10:09:31 pm »

Certainly you can hook the horn to the amp assuming the impedance is within the amps capabilities.

The cap should not be required in a biamp configuration.  A capacitor in series with the voice coil forms a simple LC network, the most basic of crossovers.  Redundant to the drive rack.  These are audio basics you should understand before wiring up a complex bi-amp'd system.

I don't remember if the 260 has a voltage limiter option.  If it does you could at least calculate the limiter setting, protecting your tweeters.

Ok yes I am running a compression driver and tweeter per a pair per channel wired parallel now the PRV 350 to tweeter comes with a soldered cap I don't know it's rating both yes both the driver and tweeter have a cap on it. And yes the DBX260 has a limiter feature but don't know exactly how to use it.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2016, 07:20:10 am »

Do you know how to use any limiter?

The HF drivers (professional speakers don't have tweeters) in parallel is probably the root of your issue.  Placings drivers in parallel decreases impedance increasing amplifier output, you should run them in series.  The amp will be easier to control with a more resistive load.

It is clear from your comments that you don't have the requisite experience to tackle this yourself.  You don't want to hire someone to make a small tactical change in processing.  You need an engineer to look at the whole system and develop a strategy for you.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2016, 10:02:39 am »

Do you know how to use any limiter?

The HF drivers (professional speakers don't have tweeters) in parallel is probably the root of your issue.  Placings drivers in parallel decreases impedance increasing amplifier output, you should run them in series.  The amp will be easier to control with a more resistive load.

It is clear from your comments that you don't have the requisite experience to tackle this yourself.  You don't want to hire someone to make a small tactical change in processing.  You need an engineer to look at the whole system and develop a strategy for you.



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[/quote
He SHOULD NOT run the tweeters and compression drivers in series.

If he does, then the compression drivers will be limited by the cap crossover of the tweeter.

If there was a proper crossover (meaning a low pass on the compression driver) then the impedance will not be lowered by using the higher freq tweeter.

The crossover will "take care" of the impedance issue.
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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2016, 10:08:17 am »

Ok yes I am running a compression driver and tweeter per a pair per channel wired parallel now the PRV 350 to tweeter comes with a soldered cap I don't know it's rating both yes both the driver and tweeter have a cap on it. And yes the DBX260 has a limiter feature but don't know exactly how to use it.
Maybe it would help if you told us what settings you are currently using.

Not that anybody would be willing to "stand behind" any suggestions, but it would give an idea of how much  guidance is needed.

Some screen shots for example
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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2016, 10:10:25 am »



The HF drivers (professional speakers don't have tweeters)
Actually quite a few currently do, and have used tweeters, historically.
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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2016, 12:16:58 am »

Actually quite a few currently do, and have used tweeters, historically.

Well looked up somethings on my dbx I set my settings to the best sounding to me I also included limiter for you guys to help me with.
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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2016, 02:14:55 am »

Actually quite a few currently do, and have used tweeters, historically.

I was only trying to indoctrinate him to pro sound vernacular. 

Gomer's refer to HF drivers generically as tweeters.

I do know that the older JBL SR series had an ultra high range HF driver that some referred to as a "super tweeter" 

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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2016, 02:25:05 am »

Do you know how to use any limiter?

The HF drivers (professional speakers don't have tweeters) in parallel is probably the root of your issue.  Placings drivers in parallel decreases impedance increasing amplifier output, you should run them in series.  The amp will be easier to control with a more resistive load.

It is clear from your comments that you don't have the requisite experience to tackle this yourself.  You don't want to hire someone to make a small tactical change in processing.  You need an engineer to look at the whole system and develop a strategy for you.



Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
[/quote
He SHOULD NOT run the tweeters and compression drivers in series.

If he does, then the compression drivers will be limited by the cap crossover of the tweeter.

If there was a proper crossover (meaning a low pass on the compression driver) then the impedance will not be lowered by using the higher freq tweeter.

The crossover will "take care" of the impedance issue.

Ivan is exactly right.  I did not reread the inventory so I made the assumption of three way with amp channels for each driver range. 

What I was saying is all the HF horns in parallel will create a higher impedance to the amplifier, reducing maximum output and putting the output in the most stable of it's region.  I never suggested putting mixed drivers in series.  That would not work.

The same principal would work for the the upper HF drivers.  Take the caps off and put them in series, you don't have enough channels to do 4 way stereo with the 260.

I am concerned you set things by ear.  Especially if you did it in the small room you took the pictures.  Your ear is not trained and you don't have deep knowledge of crossovers. 

Do you understand the three fundamental variables of Center Freq., Q and gain ?
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
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Re: Help tuning Speakers with DBX DriveRack260
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2016, 07:44:11 am »

Well looked up somethings on my dbx I set my settings to the best sounding to me I also included limiter for you guys to help me with.
I don't see anything.

Simply tuning a DSP "By ear" is not going to get you good results-at least by most peoples ears.

There are a few exceptions, but those people also understand what they are doing and why.

Simply "making adjustments until you get something" is not a good approach.

You have to start with A REASON for every adjustment.


If you cannot justify each adjustment or setting-then chances are it is wrong.

Blowing the HF drivers would be a good example.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
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