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Author Topic: Too many hands in the cookie jar?  (Read 7157 times)

David Vercoe

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Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« on: November 16, 2015, 04:23:24 PM »

My church just recently got a Behringer x32 (full size). Yesterday (Sunday 11/15/2015) was our second Sunday using the board. Our first Sunday (11/8/2015) running service with the board I was running the sound. I am our audio coordinator at my church I basically am a volunteer audio director. I was approached by our worship leader telling me that our youth director who has a little experience running the board is going to be behind the board with me and my sound people to make sure that we are hitting our cues not just the audio team but also our media team. I am thinking that this creates a situation of too many hands in the cookie jar or too many chiefs not enough Indians whichever you choose to use. I am posting this to see what everyone else thinks. The main reason I mentioned yesterday is because our run through of the songs for the service and the service went well but the fact that what I was told he was to be doing he didn't even do he was there telling us what to turn up and what to turn down which to me is completely opposite of what I was told he was to be doing and when the sound people were trained our worship leader and I trained them to trust their ears. I am a believer that a sound person needs to trust their own ears before they trust someone else's ears. I should also mention that our first sunday running the service with the board he was kind of doing the same thing. I feel like our worship leader and our youth director talk about doing this I am wondering if I am correct in my thinking of what this creates and if anyone else thinks the same. I am also trying to figure out advice on how I can bring this concern to our worship leader. I am not sure how to bring the concern to him without it coming out wrong or without him taking it the wrong way.

Thank you
Dave   
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David Vercoe
Audio Technician
Roxborough Presbyterian Church
www.rpcnet.org

Ray Aberle

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 04:44:14 PM »

... I don't understand your issue here. Your paragraph had a few too many run on sentences and other formatting weirdness that it is difficult to follow along as to what you are referring to.

Are you telling us that your worship leader doesn't feel you are doing your job correctly? Have you sat down with him to make sure that you understand his expectations, so that you can fully meet them?

As in any facility, communication is vital, so he will certainly agree that it is a good thing that you are seeking clarification. If he doesn't have an ego, then he will welcome the opportunity.

-Ray
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 06:54:24 PM »

This can be a tough situation.  Paramount is keeping your goal in mind-and you have to be honest with yourself about what your goal REALLY is not what it should be.

I was the sound man at our church for many years (17 or so?) and pastor asked another man to mix and now Imdo media coordination.  Out of principle, I never tell him how to fix his mix.  I will help him fix a problem if he can't get or if he hits a mental block like all do from time to time (unmute the channel, etc.), or maybe can't get the EQ right to maximize gain before feedback with a guest speaker on a lava liver.  It takes a lot of trust and mutual respect-and the  realization that in a ministry setting there are worse things than having a less than perfect mix.

We rarely do mic checks-so most of our mixing is on the fly which is also why we have 2 working things. It can be tough to hit cues when the order of service is developing as you go.  That said, one thing I have observed (maybe this is just me) is that it easier to know how to fix a problem in the mix when you are not the one fixing it.

Communication and and everyone understanding that they are part of a team-depending on the game a team can have any number of team mates-but usually only one has the ball.  That doesn't minimize the importance of the other team members.



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Steve Swaffer

Jim Rutherford

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2015, 09:30:16 PM »

David,
Let's break this down a bit;
1) Is the sound and or the video team missing que's?  If so, ask yourself why?  Are you getting into the song, forgetting that the Paster is going to jump up and start talking?  Is the service order plotted out so everyone is in sync?  Having a spotter isn't a bad idea.   We often work as a team at the board.
2) Is the mix as good as it should be?  If not, why?  Mixing the song is subjective (with the exception that the lead singer is on top).  Only the lead on the board makes level changes.  Working as a team, only if something is way off the can we reach in or make a suggestion. 
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David Vercoe

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2015, 02:38:11 PM »

David,
Let's break this down a bit;
1) Is the sound and or the video team missing que's?  If so, ask yourself why?  Are you getting into the song, forgetting that the Paster is going to jump up and start talking?  Is the service order plotted out so everyone is in sync?  Having a spotter isn't a bad idea.   We often work as a team at the board.
2) Is the mix as good as it should be?  If not, why?  Mixing the song is subjective (with the exception that the lead singer is on top).  Only the lead on the board makes level changes.  Working as a team, only if something is way off the can we reach in or make a suggestion.

Jim,
the answer to your break down;
1)For the most part the sound team does not miss cues. Only on rare occasions at this point do we miss cues. Right now if we do miss cues it is mostly to do with the fact that this board is new to everyone and we are working out the learning curve. We have been using the analog board that we had for almost 17 years. When we talked about ordering the behringer X32 I informed our worship leader that there is a learning curve and that everyone would have to bear with us as we work out the learning curve. We don't miss the cues mainly because I am there to help make sure my sound team is hitting the cues. Unless I am called on to fill in on drums I am always up at the mixing board. We do have the order of worship plotted out. Not to mention that every so often when we do miss cues and that does include me as our most experienced sound operator it is because they change the order of things with out knowledge which is nothing more than a lack of communication on the part of the worship leader and pastor.
2)The mix we feel for the most part is where we want it. I have things set up that the person running the sound that particular week is the only one touching the board unless things get off. Then I will make the adjustments that need to be made. I don't mind working as a team. We try to do that as it is. The problem is that I don't know what the youth leader is supposed to be doing because I was told one thing but he is not doing what I was told he was to be doing and stepping over me when I was put as our sound director although volunteer before our youth director came back to the church. Our youth director was one of our youth and went to college and came back being hired as our youth director.

My issue is the fact that I was told one thing and something else is happening and I am being over run by the person I was told was not to be stepping over me and over running me but just making sure cues are being hit when they need to be. When I was put on board as our audio director I was told that I was to be 1)Getting volunteers for the sound team. Not doing well on that because no one wants to volunteer. 2)Set up a training structure an curriculum for training. 3) oversee the operation of the audio for the service which I thought making sure cues are hit and on time was part of that.

Thanks 
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David Vercoe
Audio Technician
Roxborough Presbyterian Church
www.rpcnet.org

David Allred

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2015, 02:54:47 PM »

Look at it this way.  You volunteer your service and will be blessed for it.  He gets paid, so he has his reward.  Just do what you can to help out.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2015, 03:14:43 PM »


My issue is the fact that I was told one thing and something else is happening and I am being over run by the person I was told was not to be stepping over me and over running me but just making sure cues are being hit when they need to be. When I was put on board as our audio director I was told that I was to be 1)Getting volunteers for the sound team. Not doing well on that because no one wants to volunteer. 2)Set up a training structure an curriculum for training. 3) oversee the operation of the audio for the service which I thought making sure cues are hit and on time was part of that.

Thanks

Then a conversation with the pastor is in order.  I had much the same situation-except the youth that came back as a youth pastor & music director was also the Pastor's son.  In that situation, everyone knew that I would do what the pastor wanted or expected and it didn't matter who wanted something else.  You can comment on the mix all you want, I will smile and nod my head.  Too loud?  Same thing.  Too soft? same thing.  I might suggest you express your concerns to the pastor if you are too insistent.  But you have to know what the pastor wants.  I missed that on a few occasions, because the pastor chose to let his son make changes-I didn't pick up on that.  The only way to know is for everyone to communicate.

You must know what the pastor wants and he must know what is happening.

I will offer this anecdote.  Last year during our Live Animal Play (www.liveanimalchristmasplay.com if you are curious), one of the men who worked very closely with pastor was very insistent that things be mixed a certain way-and he had spent a lot of time working on orchestration involved.  I knew this was frustrating one of the men helping me, so I mentioned it to pastor (it can be a very intense 2 weeks for us so it takes work to not have excessive friction).  He did not know that that was happening-and it ended immediately with no drama or fanfare.  I suspect if the youth pastor is paid staff he has additional incentive to follow instructions.
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Steve Swaffer

Jim Rutherford

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2015, 08:31:11 PM »

David,
Here is my take,
1) I should have picked it up based on the thread title, but is your nose just out of joint because he is stepping into your silo?  It's great to see you have a team that you 'oversee', but ask yourself if you are just reacting to the perceived intrusion? 
2) it sounds like the youth director is just that, youthful.  Could it be that the Paster just wants him to learn how things work?  Or simply just said go over there and help out?  As Stephen suggested, talk to the Paster.
3) embrace him and teach him on how to run sound.  Let him mix.  He will miss que's as well.  Either he will become useful or he will quickly get distracted with the next thing to go do.
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Clayton Ganzer

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2015, 10:04:49 PM »

A little late to this post. Hopefully all has been worked out. I will offer my take on it anyway.
The last time I was a Technical Director (in 2014) it was for a decent sized church (10,000+ members) even though I was the top guy in the media department I still hired a person who's only job was to keep us on track, on cue, and on time during the service. She reported to me, but during service she made sure I (& the entire team) was on point. There are so many things going on during a church service, so many variables, so many changes, so many unexpected things that one person can't possibly handle it all. This is probably the first time the Youth Director has ever been put in a situation like this before. He probably doesn't understand what exactly he needs to do. So give him, and everyone, some time to figure out what everyone's role is and where they fit into the picture. Some simple conversations, over time, will probably yield very positive results.
If it's was one of your tasks to build and train a tech team, it looks like your team just got bigger. Embrace the change, and move on.
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Darren Aitcheson

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Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 07:01:18 AM »

I'm loving the fact that a church with 10000 members is described as a "decent-sized church".

For some of us, a decent-sized church is when 150 people turn up.  ;)
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Too many hands in the cookie jar?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 07:01:18 AM »


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