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[jesseweiss]

Okay, I'm going to risk another thread  .

Our current setup in the school theater uses an LS9-16 with 16 Shure wireless lavs in the sound booth running out to 4 hung speakers and a sub beneath the stage.  I did not install or setup this equipment other than the lavs receivers, so be patient with me as I'm really just getting started learning about the board, etc.. in the last 2 years.  This is NOT my full time job, I'm a teacher and I do this on the side for the school play and musical.  I took over because we were spending almost 5 figures to rent equipment and hire someone, and they were doing a crappy job.  So far, with the help of a sound engineer I know, we've been able to get the original install fixed, upgrade with all the lavs, get the system EQ'd better, and basically I've been able to very successfully run sound.

In the last few years, what the musical director and I have noticed is that the kids can't hear the pit band so they play a little louder, which in turn makes it harder to get enough volume out of the kids mics.  The kids also can't really hear themselves singing.  The musical director does have a little PA that he runs the digital piano through and sometimes mics some horns or strings through.  It's usually only like a 6 piece group.

So here's my question, how hard would it be to get some small stage monitors hooked up to the system?  I know monitoring the band would simply be throwing some small wedges on the front of the stage (I would have to get something unobstrusive), but I'm really wondering how complicated (I have the funds to hire someone) it would be to run on stage monitors from the booth so that the kids could hear themselves singing as well.

I'm open to all advice, including the pros and cons of doing this from people's experience.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Not "small wedges on the front of the stage".

One/side from the wings just behind the proscenium arch...on stands at least 5-6' in the air.  If there's a dead spot front and center, then a small wedge for fill might be useful, but wedges will either shoot the sound over the performers heads or get blocked by bodies.

Floor monitors only work for a limited, specified area.  You want elevated "stage wash" config.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Jesse-

Having done a bunch of youth musical theater I have a couple of observations that are relevant to your quest.

First, it's not that the orchestra isn't loud enough (it's already making it hard for the kids to hear themselves), it's that the kids are hearing a mish-mash of sound because of multiple arrival times (reflections, bends, scenery, large props) from the pit;

Second, the arrival is LATE.  Sound travels at roughly 1 millisecond per foot, so if the band are 20' from the cast the cast will hear the band 20ms late, then they have to open their mouths and sing (the response takes time, too).

The resulting smear of sound means that whatever part(s) the kids are using for time and pitch references doesn't really help much and, in fact, may make them more hesitant to sing out.

Dick gives excellent advice, again.  Get a pair of speakers and put them on stands in the first wing (each side of stage) and aim them about 30° upstage (kind of toward the opposite, upstage corner).  You'll want a mix that includes piano and any instruments the singers rely upon for time or pitch.  Note that this may change for each song, singer, or even within a number (just depends on the show).  How you get this mix is up to you, but there are 8 XLR "outports" on the LS9/16 that can be assigned to any "virtual" output, or you can have the MD take care of it with his little mixer (but you'll have no control over it and it may create other problems, but you'll have to try it and see).

DO NOT put singer's mics in the monitors.  The problem you already have is that the band/orchestra/HVAC noise is louder than the kid's voices AT THEIR MICS.  All you will do is pump that undesired content all over the stage and make things worse, not better.

Kevin M will probably be along with many more suggestions. 

[Scott Wagner]

Not "small wedges on the front of the stage".

One/side from the wings just behind the proscenium arch...on stands at least 5-6' in the air.  If there's a dead spot front and center, then a small wedge for fill might be useful, but wedges will either shoot the sound over the performers heads or get blocked by bodies.

Floor monitors only work for a limited, specified area.  You want elevated "stage wash" config.

This right here.

I would put the band through the monitors at a low enough level that the kids can hear themselves sing over it. Putting 16 open mics that are gained up to capture weak singers through the stage monitors is a recipe for disaster. If the kids can't hear themselves, then they need to sing louder - which solves a lot of other issues you have, too.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

This right here.

I would put the band through the monitors at a low enough level that the kids can hear themselves sing over it. Putting 16 open mics that are gained up to capture weak singers through the stage monitors is a recipe for disaster. If the kids can't hear themselves, then they need to sing louder - which solves a lot of other issues you have, too.

A lot of the issues in theater sound are more properly addressed at the source ( stage direction, blocking) and tight control of pit band level/dynamics.

Applying technical fixes to untenable staging is not the (complete) answer.

Edit:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=projecting+voice+from+the+stage

[jesseweiss]

Thanks guys!  Excellent advice.

Certainly controlling pit band levels is key, but as those with youth theater know there's only so quiet you can be.  The guys are pros, but it's an ongoing challenge.

The MD has his PA face the audience since he doesn't want it to overwhelm the kids, but I think the piano the kids are hearing is too quiet.  So the option of running some side fill monitors out of his PA is an excellent one.

I'll definitely avoid on stage monitors for voices though.  I was worried it would bring me all sorts of feedback issues, which is why I asked.

Scott W, don't I wish we could just make them sing louder by telling them.  Some do, some don't and it varies show to show.  I'm hoping that maybe hearing the piano a little more will give them more energy.

While I have your attention, what have you found to be the best location for the lavs?  Right now I have them in the lapel area and try to get them centered.  Because of costume restrictions, most are probably 4" below (and occasionally slightly off to the side) of the actor's mouth.  I know people do them taped to the cheek and you can also run them up into the hairline on the forehead.

I'd love to get more signal in them and to get them on the head so that head turns don't affect input signal.  Thoughts?

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Putting the keys and any other "key" instruments through side washes is likely to obviate the need for the MD's "PA".

[jesseweiss]

Putting the keys and any other "key" instruments through side washes is likely to obviate the need for the MD's "PA".

You think the side washes will reach the audience?  That's what he uses it for, particularly for acoustic instruments so they can be heard.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

You think the side washes will reach the audience?  That's what he uses it for, particularly for acoustic instruments so they can be heard.

Anything producing sound anywhere in the room will have a presence.  The job is to balance all these and, as much as possible, time align them with a nod to the Haas effect.  Remember that it's " sound reinforcement" rather than "amplification".

Clarity/balance over volume.

One problem I see with the MD PA is that the unmiked voices come in behind it in time, thus effectively "masking" them to a certain extent.

My experience with the side washes is that when they are at a usable level for those on stage, they will also have both direct sound to the house and, if you have any choir or area mics, through these as well.  This is manageable and not a bad thing, but if the band PA is facing house, you'll get two conflicting time arrivals.

It's all about balance and consensus.

[David Allred]

Why not put vocals only in the house PA with a little delay and the music (instruments) through the side washes?

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