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Author Topic: Large Outdoor Events  (Read 17345 times)

Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 12:27:33 PM »

My .02
I have done about 25 Relay For Life (RFL) events at 10 different venues.
I have always volunteered my system and time.

Get the SOOW 10 gauge power cord. I often need 200 feet before I get to my distribution.
After that I use 12 gauge to distribute to each of my individual runs.

If you can, set up in the middle of the field and point your speakers out in all directions from there.
It is less distance from the middle to the sidelines than all the way across from 1 side.
You also avoid the comb filtering, though that is not that big a deal at these events.

If you have enough speakers, (I use 8 ) set up in the middle at about the 30 yard line, run 6 speakers around the stage, angled 60 degrees each. Then get a speaker delay and set 2 more speakers around the 60 yard line.

Subs can be clustered somewhere near the middle. Do not put subs at a distance from the stage, even when on a delay. It is too difficult to make that work. Also these events are usually near neighborhoods and keeping the subs lower avoids problems with local noise ordinances.

There is usually police at the events. Introduce yourself and ask them to let you know if it needs to be turned down. At all events where I have done this, I have never been asked to turn it down.

My goal was to get the most clarity to the largest area without being too loud at any 1 location.
When you have to set up on 1 side line, in order to be loud enough to make it across the field, it is too loud as the walkers go by each speaker.
If you still need to be on a side line, get the speakers up as high as possible.

There is usually more activity around the perimeter than in the middle.

Available power is almost always a problem. (Only 1 of my 10 venues has good power.)
Arrange to meet with the facilities manager before the event. They can often arrange for a 2nd circuit.
Make sure you remind the RFL event chair to remind the team captains that all site power is dedicated to the sound system unless otherwise arranged in advance. They are usually aware of the situation and remind the team captains, but I have still had people plug in a 2000 watt toaster oven using a 16 gauge 100 foot extension plugged in to my powered speaker runs.

Note that the RFL event has changed over the last 10 years and many now end near midnight instead of 7:00 AM.
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

Jake Bekkerus

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 01:21:23 PM »

Steve,

Right now I am only working with 4 speakers and 2 subs. After all of the advice I received, I will be expanding the system. This decision was made based on the fact that I am pretty sure I have gotten the most out of my current setup I can manage. In the mean time, I will be working hard to make sure I have a full understanding of the structures my DRPA2 has to offer. With the coupled more efficient system, and the better understanding of the equipment I currently have I am pretty positive I will be able to achieve what I am looking for. I think your method of set up is interesting. I had honestly placed being on the field completely out of my available options, just because of the cable paths that would be necessary. I was trying to eliminate trip hazards. By setting up down the sidelines I am on the other side of the fence, so there usually aren't any people in my area. I am able to evenly distribute my speakers in 50 foot increments. I am not opposed to attempting a set up similar to yours, but how did you handle the trip hazard? Usually the plug is on the other side of the track from the field meaning it will be walked over literally more than 10,000 times before the night is over. That amount of traffic has me concerned.

Ed, I will definitely be ordering that book. Thanks for the heads up!

My plan for expansion is as follows:
Eventually I want to work my way up to 2 JBL STX825, 4 JBL STX812M, 2 JBL SRX828SP. I want to have a Crown XTi 6002 bridged for each 825, and another per pair of the monitors. I will keep my mixer until such a time when it no longer fulfills what I need it to do, or stops working.

I am going to try to build this up over time selling off pieces to replace other pieces so that I don't have to take the huge hit all at once. I was going to start by selling a pair of my 225s and replacing them with a pair of the monitors.

The extension cord has already been ordered.

Is this plan a step in the right direction, or am I still missing something?
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 02:41:59 PM »

Steve,

Right now I am only working with 4 speakers and 2 subs. After all of the advice I received, I will be expanding the system. This decision was made based on the fact that I am pretty sure I have gotten the most out of my current setup I can manage. In the mean time, I will be working hard to make sure I have a full understanding of the structures my DRPA2 has to offer. With the coupled more efficient system, and the better understanding of the equipment I currently have I am pretty positive I will be able to achieve what I am looking for. I think your method of set up is interesting. I had honestly placed being on the field completely out of my available options, just because of the cable paths that would be necessary. I was trying to eliminate trip hazards. By setting up down the sidelines I am on the other side of the fence, so there usually aren't any people in my area. I am able to evenly distribute my speakers in 50 foot increments. I am not opposed to attempting a set up similar to yours, but how did you handle the trip hazard? Usually the plug is on the other side of the track from the field meaning it will be walked over literally more than 10,000 times before the night is over. That amount of traffic has me concerned.

Ed, I will definitely be ordering that book. Thanks for the heads up!

My plan for expansion is as follows:
Eventually I want to work my way up to 2 JBL STX825, 4 JBL STX812M, 2 JBL SRX828SP. I want to have a Crown XTi 6002 bridged for each 825, and another per pair of the monitors. I will keep my mixer until such a time when it no longer fulfills what I need it to do, or stops working.

I am going to try to build this up over time selling off pieces to replace other pieces so that I don't have to take the huge hit all at once. I was going to start by selling a pair of my 225s and replacing them with a pair of the monitors.

The extension cord has already been ordered.

Is this plan a step in the right direction, or am I still missing something?
Jake, unless you have a really good reason to stay passive, I would strongly suggest you move to self-powered speakers.  I had an hour long conversation with a JBL Product manager about the SRX-800P series a few weeks ago and according to him SRX-800P > the STX equivalent: better sound quality, more output, internal speaker processing/protection so no tuning/guessing required, less expensive when you consider the cost of STX plus the amp, not to mention less truck space due to not needing amp racks.

You're at a point where you can make a clean break to self-powered.  I would do that ASAP.
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Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 03:08:52 PM »

Instead of "If you can..." I should have stated "If you can safely do so..."
Sometimes power was already in the field. Other times I would rig up something overhead. Usually with speaker stands and fence rail. The overhead was a convenient place to attach purple balloons. I never laid cable across the track.
Sometimes I ended up going down the side line just like you do now. The sound results were not as good, but it was the best I could do safely.

For long runs in the field I would tie grocery store plastic bags every few feet.
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 03:42:02 PM »

You make a good point about power.  IMO having a rig that can run well from one 20 amp circuit is a must for weekender work. 

When I started providing sound back in the 90's I used four Crown MT1200 amps.  I never had an issue running those four amplifiers on one circuit however I do remember seeing the lights at some venues dim with beat of the kick-drum....  I have since updated my power amps to Itechs, XTI's, etc. and all is fine.   

I'm a fan of passive rigs with efficient amplifiers.

I recently provided the sound system for the DJ at our local Relay for Life.  The overnight event took place on an unlit football field and the stage had a generator for power.  I had a "whopping" 13 amps to work with....  My passive rig (Yorkville TX cabs, three Crown power amps) worked well.  It covered the whole field with "announcements" and a solid half of the field with DJ music.  Also, over the years the Relay has been rained on....I just tarp the subs and put plastic contractor bags on the mid/hi cabs and the music keeps pumping.  I do not know if I could tarp/bag active cabinets...

FYI: I do not own a trailer.  For most of the sound gigs that I do, I use my Ford Expedition.  If the gig calls for more rig I rent a trailer but most of the time I just rent a van from U-Haul and pass on the cost of the rental [trailer or van] to the client.   

Mike M   

I have seen good 5x10's locally for around $1000, so while an expense not a huge one.  I used to use my F150 for gigs instead of the van I had at the time as the van had no a/c.  I put a leveling kit on the truck and 32" tires, that made it to the point that lifting the subs up to the tailgate was a little much.

I still have that van, keep it loaded with a KW112/KW181/X32 rack turnkey system.  I have a group of people that schedule, come get the van and bring it back the way it was plus $350.00 in the glove box.  It has been a consistent revenue generator.

As far as me, I rent box trucks once or twice a week.  Starting doing more lighting and the trussing pushed me over the edge.  I think I am going to get one of those spiffy new high top Ford Transit vans.  Great gas mileage, you can order it with a cargo interior and all gussied up in the front with leather and Sync. 

I am just a little concerned about the winter performance so I was going to hold on the F150 also.  I often mention the SAF or Spousal Acceptance Factor.  Having 1 or 2 trailers, a van, an F150 in the driveway may result in some pushback.  I have already been told that rolling subs around in the driveway at 4AM is obnoxious.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Jake Bekkerus

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 05:14:46 PM »

TJ - The Main reason I had been choosing to stay passive was for ease of adjustment from one central location through out the night, plus flexibility. I understand your point about the difference in both storage space and cost efficiency, and totally agree. Maybe there is some piece that I am missing, but I have a hard time understanding why the numbers between the two are SO vastly different. There is only a difference of 3dB spl between some of them, but the power ratings are between double and triple on the passive cabinets? I suppose you are right about my cross roads and being able to move away from them. I just want to make sure because of the kind of events that I do/will be doing it is the wisest choice. I'm also concerned about the amount of cable it takes to run those kinds of speakers, because instead of running one speaker cable I am now running a signal cable and a power cable. What kind of gauges or kind of cable should I be looking for to carry a signal over 100 feet?

Steve - Using trussing is a brilliant idea! I can't believe I didn't think about. I'm sure they would welcome it as a "Starting" line. I will look into trying to pick up one of these as well.

Scott - The trailer has got to be an investment, because several of these do last overnight for me. By the time I get home, I have been out for more than 16 hours. The last thing I want to do is drag all of the stuff inside. The storage options around here are extremely limited. Most of them are NOT climate controlled, and I wouldn't trust my gear in a metal building through a texas summer. Not to mention, even without any kind of lift kit hefting those 100 pound cabinets by myself onto my ram tail gate is more than my back should continue sustaining. The trailer would have a door that swings down to a ramp so the dolly can do the majority of the work. I have been able to find a few single axle 5x10 trailers for right around 2k.

I would love to hear more about the powered vs passive debate. Which set ups do you guys prefer using in your own rigs?
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 05:31:20 PM »

TJ - The Main reason I had been choosing to stay passive was for ease of adjustment from one central location through out the night, plus flexibility. I understand your point about the difference in both storage space and cost efficiency, and totally agree. Maybe there is some piece that I am missing, but I have a hard time understanding why the numbers between the two are SO vastly different. There is only a difference of 3dB spl between some of them, but the power ratings are between double and triple on the passive cabinets? I suppose you are right about my cross roads and being able to move away from them. I just want to make sure because of the kind of events that I do/will be doing it is the wisest choice. I'm also concerned about the amount of cable it takes to run those kinds of speakers, because instead of running one speaker cable I am now running a signal cable and a power cable. What kind of gauges or kind of cable should I be looking for to carry a signal over 100 feet?
A single powered speaker draws 2-5 amps.  I would suggest standardizing on #12 cabling because it's generally a good idea, though #14 would work for 100' with a single powered speaker.

Lots of people struggle with the idea of switching from passive to active, but IMO the advantages of active are huge compared to passive.  Yes you run both a signal cable and a power cable to each speaker, but you have to run a signal cable from the mixer to the amp rack plus a power cable, and then another speaker cable from your amp rack to the remote speaker.  Now what if you want a couple speakers 200' away from your home base?  You can't run 200' of speaker cable (or at least you shouldn't).  Do you tear your amp rack apart so you can stick one amp remotely?  If so, you still have the same issue of running power and signal, plus the speakon cables.

As to sound quality, for the STX to be in the same ballpark as the SRX-800P series, you're going to need to biamp using ITechHD amps.  A pair of SRX-812 is ~$2500.  A pair of STX-812 plus an ITechHD 4x3500 is going to be ~$8000.

UndercoverNYC makes waterproof speaker covers that protect the amp modules as well as the speakers, so again that's not a particularly significant hurdle.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2015, 05:33:41 PM »

Not to mention, even without any kind of lift kit hefting those 100 pound cabinets by myself onto my ram tail gate is more than my back should continue sustaining. The trailer would have a door that swings down to a ramp so the dolly can do the majority of the work. I have been able to find a few single axle 5x10 trailers for right around 2k.

I would love to hear more about the powered vs passive debate. Which set ups do you guys prefer using in your own rigs?

Ramps, wheels, hand truck.  Work smart not hard.

Powered/passive has been discussed a whole metric shit ton.  You might want to do a search but essentially you're trading amp racks for heavier/larger speakers that now require both power and a signal cable.  In the end it's about the same amount of work, just divided into different packages.  Our company has everything from speakers on sticks to big-dog arena/stadium line array systems, both powered and conventional, and find no clear cut and uniform advantage to either.  If we did tours or events where the same package of equipment was set up mostly the same way every day, there might be reasons to prefer one over the other but as a company doing mostly fairs, festivals and one-off concerts there is no definitive choice.

Take 10 minutes to read my blog post.  It gets into the business and logistical aspects of growth.
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Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2015, 07:54:48 PM »

as to a trailer, get one with brakes. also check the weight limit. It is real easy to exceed the weight limit and still have plenty of space. my 6 x 12 has just enough weight capacity for a typical band gig with a couple spare speakers. (I went powered about 10 years ago and have been very happy with my rig.)

I keep most of the gear in the trailer year round and have not noticed any problems. (and columbia sc can be pretty warm) it saves having to do a 2nd load+unload each gig.
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Steve Loewenthal

"I'm, just the guy in a band that owns the PA and I'm trying to figure out how it works. (Been trying to learn somethin' about it for about 20 years and I hope somethin' learns me soon)"

Lee Buckalew

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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2015, 08:05:09 PM »

TJ - The Main reason I had been choosing to stay passive was for ease of adjustment from one central location through out the night, plus flexibility.

I would love to hear more about the powered vs passive debate. Which set ups do you guys prefer using in your own rigs?

As has been said, plenty here if you search for passive vs. self-powered compare/contrast.

I will add that the SRX800 do sound very good and have high output capability in their price range. They also have network connection capability which allows for a central connection and a WAP so that you can use an iPad with SRX Connect loaded as your "ease of adjustment" location.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Re: Large Outdoor Events
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2015, 08:05:09 PM »


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