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[Bob Leonard]

I had meant to mention that the EAW, and now the EV monitors that I have purchased have their horns above the 12" drivers. Ivan, should I turn them upside down? Just kidding.

Point to ponder.

A one armed man is depressed to the point where he contemplates suicide. He goes to the top of a 10 story building and is about to jump when he notices something on the sidewalk below.

He looks and sure enough, there a man with NO ARMS dancing on the sidewalk. The man stops, thinks about life and only having one arm, and decides life can't be that bad. He then decides to go down and talk to the happy dancing no armed man.

He catches up to the man with no arms, who now appears to be smiling and dancing like crazy all over the sidewalk. People are smiling and laughing, thanking him for the dance and good outlook on life, and all the while he keeps dancing.

The one armed man stops the man with no arms and thanks him stating "Your happiness has given me a reason to live.

The guy with no arms looks at the one armed man and replies. Happy? I'm not fucking happy. My balls itch and I can't scratch them."


Think about it. Is monitor placement on a small stage really always that important?

[Bob Leonard]

I've been using single purpose monitors for some time now and am getting good results.
I'll have monitors for vocal only and monitors for the instrument returns. Gives a point source to the sound and less feedback to boot. So long as you have even a rough idea what is coming for band requirements it works good.
In this picture I had 3 EV SXA250's for the vocals and 2 Peavey 15pm monitors for the instruments. For the type of music the band was happy with the results. The drummer had 1 SXA250 for himself but was happy with a little bit of everything in it.  With the 6 mixes I could do a lot to make the band happy.

Douglas R. Allen

Douglas,

Where was this picture taken?

[David Hayes]

It all has to do with WAVELENGTH of the specific freq.

If you think in terms of freq that are within 1/4 wavelength of each other as adding, then you are fine.

Let's say the upper freq of the subs is 113Hz (just for easy math)

That is 10' long (lower freq are longer)

So 1/4" wavelegth is 2.5'.  It is NOT the distance between the sources, but the distance between the ARRIVAL at the listeners ears that matters.

You can hear this yourself by doing the little experiment I suggested earlier, or by putting pink noise into the monitors  and simply move your head around a little.

Let's look at 2Khz (the center freq of intelligibility for the English language).  2K is around 1/2 foot or 6 inches.  So 1/4 is around 1.5".

So when the arrivals are more than 1.5" apart, you will start to have "issues".

Here is a paper I wrote quite a few years ago-but the "rules" still apply, that should help explain things a little.

http://www.dbaudioandvideo.com/files/resource/loudspeaker_placement_rev041021.pdf

I never said your singer did not like it.  But in many cases people simply want 2 monitors because it makes them "feel" better so "special"

But that DOES NOT mean there not an issue that could not sound better by using only 1 speaker.

But for many people it is NOT about sounding good.  Often there are "other" things at play.

Just look at where sound quality comes into play when people buy line arrays.  Sound quality is not even in the top 3 or 4 reasons for buying a particular system.

But that is is a totally different situation, although the same combfiltering situation exists as when having 2 speakers covering the same area.

That makes sense.  And thanks for explaining it, although I admit some of the info in your article went over my head. The answer to my question in layman's terms was because the wavelength in higher frequencies is shorter?


So is it possible that the effects are not as noticeable because my singer ( who honestly is a guitarist who sings and has no ego issues) and his mic stand are standing maybe 3 feet in front of the wedges and (at least when he's singing) he is not moving?  He definitely can hear himself better or he wouldn't tell me he could.


I do not run sound for a living.  I actually have a pretty well paying job in natural gas.  I run sound for my band and occasionally other local bar type bands, usually in bar type settings. The reason for this is largely because as it turns out I am the only one in my band who can afford to blow cash on decent PA gear.  As you know, most musicians are pretty clueless when it comes to live sound. That being the case, I can't bring myself to let my bandmates screw around with my sound gear, so I had to do it myself.  I came here ( and other places) about 5 years ago so I could learn how to do things the right way.  I have been hindered by running sound from the stage and constantly being tasked with performing as well as being the tech ( and that includes all aspects of guitar and bass tech as well), but apparently I have a pretty decent handle on it because my band sounds good.  Good enough that other local bands want me mixing for them.  I don't always understand the science behind certain techniques but I have been fairly successful at retaining and implementing the bottom line.

Anyway, I knew before I ever posted here that this place is kinda like a shark tank.  And while I think there is some arrogance around here and that annoys me, it isn't a good excuse for me to respond with insults and profanity and I apologize.  I do and have always admitted that I know jack shit compared to most of you guys, but I, like most people, don't particularly care for being talked down to or poked fun at.  Nevertheless, I suppose it is a small price to pay to be able to trick you bastards into teaching me what you know.  It ain't like I'm going to go take a F'ing class on it or anything. 

[Keith Broughton]

I really have a laff at singers that "need" 2 wedges and then angle them in and put the mic stand so close, the sound hits them in the ...well you know. "I can't hear myself" No wonder!
I have had a lot of opportunities to test the 1 vs 2 monitors and always get better EQ results with 1. Most of the time I am working with fairly high powered  wedges so SPL isn't an issue... Placement is. You can't hear a monitor properly if you are standing on top of it!
Now I have to admit I am usually trying to get the most GBF with the least EQ.
As for more coverage, would it not make sense then for 2 wedges "flat" across or,( now this is radical  ), splay them OUT a bit. (OMG..the cold Canadian air has affected his mind  )
There is a singer I work with that doesnt need monitors on stun and does prefer the bigger "envelope" of 2 wedges. Horns out on this setup as it's a hyper card mic.
Just yesterday I had a chance to show a fellow tech the difference in how much EQ is required for 2 vs 1. He was surprised.

[David Hayes]

I really have a laff at singers that "need" 2 wedges and then angle them in and put the mic stand so close, the sound hits them in the ...well you know. "I can't hear myself" No wonder!
I have had a lot of opportunities to test the 1 vs 2 monitors and always get better EQ results with 1. Most of the time I am working with fairly high powered  wedges so SPL isn't an issue... Placement is. You can't hear a monitor properly if you are standing on top of it!
Now I have to admit I am usually trying to get the most GBF with the least EQ.
As for more coverage, would it not make sense then for 2 wedges "flat" across or,( now this is radical  ), splay them OUT a bit. (OMG..the cold Canadian air has affected his mind  )
There is a singer I work with that doesnt need monitors on stun and does prefer the bigger "envelope" of 2 wedges. Horns out on this setup as it's a hyper card mic.
Just yesterday I had a chance to show a fellow tech the difference in how much EQ is required for 2 vs 1. He was surprised.

The Alto TS112A ( I know, I know) boxes point up at a pretty good angle when laid on their side so you can get them pretty close.  Personally, I push my single box back a tad and point it straight at the back of my SM58. 

Maybe I am just super lucky, but I have never had any real problems with feedback on monitors.  Even when I was using shitty passive boxes and no EQ at all on them.  I run 15 bands on them now, but the fact is I rarely have to ever touch them.  And we are a pretty loud band.   I dunno.

[Jamin Lynch]

That's why we're the sound persons

The singers lack of understanding does not make it wrong.

Right. We as "sound persons" may understand all the reasons why a single monitor will often be better than two...musicians and singers, not so much.

Just like sound persons will never understand why a guitar amp has to be turned up so loud...we are "just" sound persons. 

[Douglas R. Allen]

Douglas,

Where was this picture taken?

https://bangordailynews.com/community/thursday-on-sweden-st-caribou-july-2nd-cajun-night/

[Matthew Knischewsky]

So I just wanted to gather some info from the collective internet engineers on here...when doing a matched pair of monitors for a band, do you usually do horns in or horns out?  I've done shows with passive (but bi-amped) wedges where the system tech set the monitors up with the horns to the outside of the pair, and the acts had no issues, but when I did them with my smaller powered wedges (RCF ART 312's) there were complaints until I turned them around and did "horns in" and they said the sound improved dramatically.  My guess is that it would have to do with the crossover points in the passive vs. the powered wedges.

Horns out.

While I will agree that 1 monitor always has better sound quality and less feedback than 2 monitors, I will disagree that it's always the best approach. My job mixing monitors is to make the musicians happy. If they hear with their eyes and having 2 monitors makes them happy...

I had one time I specifically remember where insisting on one monitor was more trouble for me, the guy never did get comfortable on stage and told me so after the set. OR he was just trying to prove me wrong who knows 

Matt

[Ivan Beaver]

I've seen 3 monitors on one guy. Makes him look very important.

The most I ever did for anybody was 5 wedges for the lead singer.

And it was a LEGIT setup.

They were setup in a V configuration.

The SINGLE wedge at the front had only his vocals.

The next ones back were stereo (so not the same signal going to them) with the background vocals.

The next ones back had a stereo band mix in them. (again-not the same signal)

So he could simply step forward and back as needed to hear what he wanted-without having to bother the monitor guy all night to adjust levels.

So even with 5, the "laws" were still obeyed.

[Ivan Beaver]

Horns out on this setup as it's a hyper card mic.
Just yesterday I had a chance to show a fellow tech the difference in how much EQ is required for 2 vs 1. He was surprised.

And the type of mic (polar pattern) will make a difference in GBF.

A hyper type mic actually has a "hot spot" directly on the backside-which would be facing a single wedge.

A cardioid mic has a null at that same point, and is "hotter" to the sides-where dual wedges would be.

So once again "it depends".

[ProSoundWeb Community]