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Author Topic: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series  (Read 48595 times)

Rob Hughes

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 05:39:53 AM »

Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.
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Roland Clarke 1964

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 06:37:17 AM »

Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.

This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)
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Peter Morris

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2015, 07:08:42 AM »

This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)

Hi Roland,

I have to agree – all of these consoles have enough inputs and outputs and their latency is low enough not to be an issue for virtually any job.

Having said that; there are advantages with low latency consoles, especially for fold-back applications. There are always other delays in the system such as digital radio mics, it can all add up very quickly to 5 or more ms. The less each contribute to the latency the better.   
 
As you said, speed and simplicity is one of the real issues – this is what I was so impressed with on the d-Live. You can see a little bit of it in AH’s video, but it’s not until you use the desk do you appreciate what a great job the team has done.

The d-Live looked and felt great, it was quick and initiative to use – I’m sure everyone’s mileage will differ but I just loved this board - as you may have gathered  ;D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 07:14:36 AM by Peter Morris »
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2015, 07:23:43 AM »

This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)

You're right about the latency. A few milliseconds is typically no problem at monitors, and lets be honest, most shows would be fine with a latency through FOH of 15-50ms.

However, you'd be surprised about channel counts. Most big pop acts easily head toward 96ch these days, and even modest TV shows (like The Voice) can easily have 144ch splits in place.

I've certainly done my fair share of shows where an SD7 was maxed out.

For me, my console choice these days comes down to 3 main things:
  • IO Flexibility
  • Surface Ergonomics
  • Snapshot system

Notice none of those were sound quality. All the desks at this level sound good. Fact. Sure, they have their differences, but they are all good.

128 in to 128 out is a bunch of channels, but I'm more interested in what I can do with that than the number itself. Normally the amount of IO I need is dictated by the show, so that is what it is. The choice of console comes down to things like how are stereo or multichannel sources handled? How are stereo auxes handled? How flexible is the routing through the console? How easy is it to record, or do a virtual soundcheck?

Surface ergonomics are obviously key. Most of my work requires me to do things very quickly.

The snapshot system is an often overlooked area of a console by manufacturers. you'd be surprised how many of these top consoles have average or poorly implemented automation. Most of my shows require a fair bit of programming, and few consoles get that right IMO. There is a reason most of the west-end runs on SD7s, and a big part of it is the snapshot engine.

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Roland Clarke 1964

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2015, 07:36:49 AM »

You're right about the latency. A few milliseconds is typically no problem at monitors, and lets be honest, most shows would be fine with a latency through FOH of 15-50ms.

However, you'd be surprised about channel counts. Most big pop acts easily head toward 96ch these days, and even modest TV shows (like The Voice) can easily have 144ch splits in place.

I've certainly done my fair share of shows where an SD7 was maxed out.

For me, my console choice these days comes down to 3 main things:
  • IO Flexibility
  • Surface Ergonomics
  • Snapshot system

Notice none of those were sound quality. All the desks at this level sound good. Fact. Sure, they have their differences, but they are all good.

128 in to 128 out is a bunch of channels, but I'm more interested in what I can do with that than the number itself. Normally the amount of IO I need is dictated by the show, so that is what it is. The choice of console comes down to things like how are stereo or multichannel sources handled? How are stereo auxes handled? How flexible is the routing through the console? How easy is it to record, or do a virtual soundcheck?

Surface ergonomics are obviously key. Most of my work requires me to do things very quickly.

The snapshot system is an often overlooked area of a console by manufacturers. you'd be surprised how many of these top consoles have average or poorly implemented automation. Most of my shows require a fair bit of programming, and few consoles get that right IMO. There is a reason most of the west-end runs on SD7s, and a big part of it is the snapshot engine.

I couldn't agree more, in regards to the sound quality issue.  I'm an Avid profile user and for small form jobs I just bought a Presonus RM32, the sound of which really impressed me as at this price point I wasn't expecting it.

I do agree a little with the inputs and outputs situation.   Mostly I find that having enough bus outs is more an issue these days, particularly with people going in ears and other feeds.  I can understand things like live TV requiring high input counts, (my example of the Grammys show above shows that), but even this shouldn't be that much of an issue in this day and age when we have several DAW's that can handle 200 + tracks without too much problem.  I do think that there are acts that are out there with stupid channel counts, many due to lack of planning or poor pre-production.  One very well known 5 piece band travels with 72 inputs and has a reputation amongst the hire company for poor sound.  Then you get the Stones, who by all accounts have a very low channel count.  15 years back, if you wanted more than 48 channels, you were carrying two desks and submixing, most worked out ways to keep less than 48 to avoid it. :)
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Michael J Palmer

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2015, 08:42:22 PM »

Kevin My Bad, I haven't updated my Profile in quite some time... Ill fix it to avoid the confusion.


Michael J Palmer,

I am confused, you signature line says that you are “VP Sales Allen & Heath and Turbosound USA”. I thought that Music Group bought Turbosound. Can you please explain.
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VP Sales Allen & Heath USA

Michael J Palmer

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2015, 08:45:23 PM »

 We are at .58  so still pretty good, and you guys are right , with latency this low, its all pretty mute point

Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.
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Peter Morris

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2015, 09:48:11 PM »

Chris and Roland,

With the massive shows you are talking about, one of the issues is what the network can deal with - in the dLives case its 814 system inputs and 824 outputs – that’s counting all possible patchable system inputs and outputs including MixRack, Surface, I/O Ports, expanders - the number of max sources and destinations the system can deal with.

So despite it attractive price, its going to be a very interesting and powerful desk.

The original iLive was a very good sounding desk, I have AB my iLives and Midas Pro series (AES out) and I cant hear the difference .  In terms of sound quality (forgetting the mic pre thing) there have always been trade offs with fix point and floating point architecture. There are different advantages with each. In this case the dLive is fixed but has an extreme bit depth combined with a 96 bit accumulator - the best of both worlds.

 
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Mac Kerr

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2015, 10:51:54 PM »

This looks like a pretty promising console. It has a lot of I/O and what looks like a nice UI. It will be interesting to see how the scene memory and programming works. At first glance, a very attractive package.

Mac
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Peter Morris

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Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2015, 12:20:27 AM »

This looks like a pretty promising console. It has a lot of I/O and what looks like a nice UI. It will be interesting to see how the scene memory and programming works. At first glance, a very attractive package.

Mac

This was AH response to a similar question about scenes ...

"Scene Management has been one of the areas of focus for dLive software development. dLive has a Cue List manager, scene crossfades, embedded recalls (automated scene recalls), selective multiple scene update, recall undo and more."
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2015, 12:20:27 AM »


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