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Author Topic: Long vs short throw boxes  (Read 25236 times)

luis Markson

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Long vs short throw boxes
« on: March 25, 2011, 01:29:59 AM »

What facet of speaker design contributes to the long/short throw charateristics of a loudspeaker?

I've always hated using powered boxes like eons and srm450 for monitors and had put that down to their "throw". I'm always amazed at how good the drum fill sounds from monitor op position, but then just falls apart on the riser.

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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 02:05:56 AM »

not trying to put down anyone here but i never heard of drums in the monitors except for 1 other post. the others guys never had a problem hearing me. my drums have never ben in the monitors. just wondering.
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luis Markson

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 03:59:54 AM »

not trying to put down anyone here but i never heard of drums in the monitors except for 1 other post. the others guys never had a problem hearing me. my drums have never ben in the monitors. just wondering.

Drums in the monitor is quite common. What I was actually referring to was the drum fill heard from the monitor desk.
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Brian Elstro

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 04:21:10 AM »

What facet of speaker design contributes to the long/short throw charateristics of a loudspeaker?

I've always hated using powered boxes like eons and srm450 for monitors and had put that down to their "throw". I'm always amazed at how good the drum fill sounds from monitor op position, but then just falls apart on the riser.

Unfortunately 'long throw' is a marketing term that has been extremely overused. The only thing that makes a speaker 'long throw' is pattern control. A more narrow pattern allows you to 'focus' the sound on your intended audience rather than having to deal with comb filtering and room reflections. A good example would be a 90x40 HF horn vs. a 60x20 HF horn (the numbers are in degrees and state the horizontal by vertical pattern control down to the crossover frequency).

Monitors are just another good example of why you need pattern control onstage. Many powered speakers like the ones you listed require to be chocked up just to get the most sensitive area focused to the muso. They are also taylored for frequency response to the most sensitive region of human hearing (although it doesnt mean that the monitor has to sound bad either). Keep in mind that for a drum monitor, you would need something that is very high sensitivity..... something like a SRM450 with a sensitivity rating of 124db (a guess) would lose 6db every doubling of distance, at 6' that would mean that the drummer is only hearing about 118db. Snare hits can easily hit 105-110db, and thats not paying attention to the guitar rigs and everything else on a noisy stage. The speakers you listed are really designed for SOS or sub augmented setups, but can be made to work in a pinch.

By my understanding this is the best explanation I can give, I am no expert, and I would hope someone would correct me if Im wrong (or maybe even explain a bit on how the LF section of controlled dispersion loudspeakers works.... it still befuddles me how they get an omni-directional driver to maintain a focused sound), hope this helps!
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 04:45:13 AM »

Drums in the monitor is quite common. What I was actually referring to was the drum fill heard from the monitor desk.
i understand now.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2011, 07:10:32 AM »

By my understanding this is the best explanation I can give, I am no expert, and I would hope someone would correct me if Im wrong (or maybe even explain a bit on how the LF section of controlled dispersion loudspeakers works.... it still befuddles me how they get an omni-directional driver to maintain a focused sound), hope this helps!
Ignoring multiple driver arrays where phase relationships are used for directivity control, there are probably a couple of significant points.  One is that the drivers are not really omnidirectional, or at least not over their full operating range.  Put a woofer in an enclosure and run it at higher frequencies relative to the piston (cone) size and it will start to have directionality, specifically the pattern will tend to focus or 'beam' at higher frequencies.
 
The other is that '90x40', '75x75', 'YxZ', etc. are simply nominal patterns, the speaker has somewhere around that pattern at some point in its operating range, usually at higher frequencies.  It does not mean that the speaker has that specific pattern at all frequencies.  Physically larger horns generally do better at maintaining a pattern and at maintaining it to lower frequencies, so compact boxes with compact horns often actually have rather limited pattern control.   A larger horn may provide pattern control down to 800Hz or even 500Hz, a small horn may not have decent pattern control until 1,500Hz or higher and may have more variance above that.  You can even experience pattern flip at some frequencies where something like a nominal 90x40 box actually has a pattern that is greater vertically than horizontally over some portion of the operating range, usually somewhere through crossover.
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luis Markson

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2011, 05:27:16 PM »

Thanks for that guys. So from what I understand throw is a product of directivity. A narrower dispersion focuses the energy into a smaller area and results in a greater distance travelled before the energy is dissipated?

If that is the case, then is there an ideal distance to have a listener from a loudspeaker? For a singer woofer and a horn, is there a point where you can be too close? I'm thinking that the directivity at certain frequencies may result in an imbalance in the frequency spectrum up close?

What explains my observations about intelligibility and stability in the drum fill? I've also noticed this when listening to program material when sitting in the drummers stool compared with listening from a couple of meters back. While the level is lower further away, the balance is dramatically better.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 06:24:08 PM by luis Markson »
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Brian Elstro

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 03:41:56 AM »

Thanks for that guys. So from what I understand throw is a product of directivity. A narrower dispersion focuses the energy into a smaller area and results in a greater distance travelled before the energy is dissipated?

If that is the case, then is there an ideal distance to have a listener from a loudspeaker? For a singer woofer and a horn, is there a point where you can be too close? I'm thinking that the directivity at certain frequencies may result in an imbalance in the frequency spectrum up close?

What explains my observations about intelligibility and stability in the drum fill? I've also noticed this when listening to program material when sitting in the drummers stool compared with listening from a couple of meters back. While the level is lower further away, the balance is dramatically better.

Yes (although the inverse square law still applies, just more 'honestly' so since there are less room interactions and negative phase effects)! There is really only an ideal distance if it is either too loud or they (the audience) are outside the coverage pattern (and if its too loud, youre too old...lol.... jk.. keep levels safe at the audiences closest points). Usually too loud comes way before you can hear the separation in coverage pattern (although it is discernable extremely close up). One explanation for a better balance is wavefront propagation. It is a difficult subject that Im not too comfortable talking about since I dont know much about speaker design, but in a nutshell its how the lower frequency wavelengths take a longer distance to form fully.  Learning the small amount that I have about loudspeaker design has helped my efforts in quality sound tremendously and you may want to look into it as well (not trying to sound condescending but its a never ending learning experience IMO). Have a good one!
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luis Markson

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 03:47:59 AM »

Yes (although the inverse square law still applies, just more 'honestly' so since there are less room interactions and negative phase effects)! There is really only an ideal distance if it is either too loud or they (the audience) are outside the coverage pattern (and if its too loud, youre too old...lol.... jk.. keep levels safe at the audiences closest points). Usually too loud comes way before you can hear the separation in coverage pattern (although it is discernable extremely close up). One explanation for a better balance is wavefront propagation. It is a difficult subject that Im not too comfortable talking about since I dont know much about speaker design, but in a nutshell its how the lower frequency wavelengths take a longer distance to form fully.  Learning the small amount that I have about loudspeaker design has helped my efforts in quality sound tremendously and you may want to look into it as well (not trying to sound condescending but its a never ending learning experience IMO). Have a good one!

You don't sound condescending, this exactly the information and advice I'm looking for..
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 09:22:00 AM »

What facet of speaker design contributes to the long/short throw charateristics of a loudspeaker?

I've always hated using powered boxes like eons and srm450 for monitors and had put that down to their "throw". I'm always amazed at how good the drum fill sounds from monitor op position, but then just falls apart on the riser.

Luis,
Being about 100 years old has often led me to not using many of the terms often read in replies or heard bantered about. I try to stay away from words or expressions such as "MI", throw, tweeter, woofer, etc..
 
In the world of speakers I tend to think of the word range, being more accurate than "throw". And, to be more precise I would prefer the term "Effective range". For most practical purposes, and as an example, almost every 15" cabinet on the face of this planet will have approximately the same "effective range". You may say to yourself you wish to put 115db on the dance floor, the back of the dance floor is 40-50 feet away, can I do this. The answer will be yes for almost any box you use.
 
The effective range however will be determined by much more than horn pattern and volume. The effective range will be determined by the speakers ability to provide clear and not distorted  output at the volumes required to obtain a 115db level at 50 feet. Will the speaker hold together at those levels, and does the speaker play well with others when multiple boxes of the same type are combined, extending the system range. Will the entire system be capable of providing the needed output, with clarity, at the distance required. Horn patterns are important but they are only a small part of the equation.
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Re: Long vs short throw boxes
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 09:22:00 AM »


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