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Author Topic: Short horn subs.  (Read 4374 times)

Jacob Shaw

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Short horn subs.
« on: May 22, 2015, 06:10:53 AM »

I am interested in the properties of short horn subs such as the funktion one 218 or the turbosound thl 828.  I have read that true horns (min 5') sound weird at close range and only really apply well pointed into huge crowds out doors, but a stack of reflex cabs for a small indoor venue looks weird.  Are these short horn designs the best of both worlds?  Or are they also better for wide open spaces?  My market is to put insane amounts of bass into small crowds.  Any thoughts?
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Mac Kerr

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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 06:16:58 AM »

Any thoughts?

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Jacob Shaw

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 03:15:03 PM »

Now that this post is unlocked, thoughts?
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Chrysander 'C.R.' Young

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 03:19:03 PM »

I think you are about to get some education from a certain resident named Ivan.  :)

Seriously, he can be kind of intense, but you'll learn quite a bit in the process.  Enjoy the ride.

(Ivan, that's your cue, buddy)
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2015, 06:32:11 PM »

I am interested in the properties of short horn subs such as the funktion one 218 or the turbosound thl 828.  I have read that true horns (min 5') sound weird at close range and only really apply well pointed into huge crowds out doors, but a stack of reflex cabs for a small indoor venue looks weird.  Are these short horn designs the best of both worlds?  Or are they also better for wide open spaces?  My market is to put insane amounts of bass into small crowds.  Any thoughts?
I have not read anything on how the horn or the "turbo device" actually works.

The horn attached to it is a short horn-but the "throat area" is not at all like other folded or straight horns.

Basically a short horn will not provide horn loading to a low freq.

So it can get loud at higher freq, but the lower freq will not be as loud.

If you operate a horn (just like a reflex/ported cabinet) below where it is intended to be operated-there is a really good chance you can damage the drivers without overpowering them.

This is called over excursion-and basically the driver is just "flopping around" and beats itself to death.

The basics are that in order to produce lower freq-the horn needs to be longer.

There is a "price to be paid" for getting the extra bass.

The "penalty" is around 9dB/octave.

There is an advantage to a short horn with minimal "turns".  They can go higher in freq than a horn with a lot of turns or a few sharp turns.

Whether that matters-depends on what the rest of the system is and how low the full range cabinets go. 

So (all other things being equal) a horn that can do 45Hz is going to be 9dB quieter than one that can do 90Hz in a given size cabinet.

When you say "insane amounts of bass", what does that REALLY mean?

Do you consider anything 70Hz to be "Bass"  or do you consider 30Hz to be "bass".

When you hear 30Hz produced clean and loud, it is a completely different experience than just listening to the harmonics (distortion) of a system trying to reproduce 30Hz.

Loud and low are VERY different things.  YOU and only YOU have to define what is more important to you and YOUR music needs.

I wonder what you mean in that horns sound weird up close?

Plenty of people use horns in smaller areas just fine.

You cannot just groups "all horns" together as being the same.

Some are better than others-some are louder than others-some go lower than others and so forth.

As usual-YOU have to accurately define what really want/need in order to get usable results.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jacob Shaw

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2015, 10:34:42 PM »

Thank you for a subjective answer to a subjective question.  I hope to eventually get to a point where I can produce the full range of low frequencies present in dance music.  I realize that I cannot do that with one or two cabinets and I have been exploring 4 and 5 way systems.  I have deducted from reading that longer horns throw longer so while they might be good at producing low frequencies the effect may be most evident outside of the venue.  I have a friend that has 8 jbl w bins with the oem drivers.  I asked him if he thinks they sound weak up close and he said yes.  He prefers to use his mtl-4s in smaller spaces, and the w-bins outside.  Can you shed some more light on this perception?
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Jacob Shaw

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 10:36:49 PM »

Btw, my tops are Gordon cubes and they only go down to 120hz, so they really ought to be on a 4 way system but currently on some scoops.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 11:41:41 PM »

Jacob, do a search on horn subs and "throw".  There was recently a thread on this.  Of many.  Ivan did his best to explain that there really isn't such a thing as "throw".  There is an white paper from Dave Gunness linked on that thread that spells it out very clearly if you can follow the technical stuff.

Bottom line, horn subs don't throw and don't take distance to "develop".  The "weirdness" is the absence of artifacts that people are used to hearing from direct radiating cabinets.  Or in your friends case, high Q bandpass cabinets.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 02:27:11 AM »

I am interested in the properties of short horn subs such as the funktion one 218 or the turbosound thl 828.  I have read that true horns (min 5') sound weird at close range and only really apply well pointed into huge crowds out doors, but a stack of reflex cabs for a small indoor venue looks weird.  Are these short horn designs the best of both worlds?  Or are they also better for wide open spaces?  My market is to put insane amounts of bass into small crowds.  Any thoughts?

Hi Jacob,

Turbosound’s bass device is only part horn.  It’s more or less a 4th order band-pass enclosure with a short horn in front of it. That way you can get reasonable extension and efficiency out of a very small box.  The compromise is bandwidth.

The 218 is configured like two of these put together. http://hornplans.free.fr/tsw118like.html  It of course goes lower and louder. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 07:37:07 AM »

Thank you for a subjective answer to a subjective question.  I hope to eventually get to a point where I can produce the full range of low frequencies present in dance music.  I realize that I cannot do that with one or two cabinets and I have been exploring 4 and 5 way systems.  I have deducted from reading that longer horns throw longer so while they might be good at producing low frequencies the effect may be most evident outside of the venue.  I have a friend that has 8 jbl w bins with the oem drivers.  I asked him if he thinks they sound weak up close and he said yes.  He prefers to use his mtl-4s in smaller spaces, and the w-bins outside.  Can you shed some more light on this perception?
Bass "horns" and "full range horns" are different animals.

Bass horns are used to gain sensitivity and greater output.  While they do have a little of directivity-it is not so much-due to the large wavelengths involved.

Full range horns ha 2 purposes.

One is to produce directivity (pattern control) and the other is to provide gain.

However a single horn cannot provide gain over a real wide range of freq.  The area that it can provide gain is limited by the throat  area (where the driver enters the horn), the expansion ratio of the horn (different freq need different expansion ratios), the physical size of the horn (length and mouth opening.

Long throw devices are not called because they "throw" the sound any further (you cannot throw sound-only "push" it), but rather because the near people who are out of the pattern are lower in level-there for the ratio of far listeners to close is smaller than if using "short throw" devices.

The end result will be the same loudness-IF it starts out at the same level.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Short horn subs.
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 07:37:07 AM »


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