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[John Roberts {JR}]

Bleach on the tires, or the real thing?

Real deal, but that road was not smooth pavement, so not the greatest traction.  I also had an open rear end (not posi-traction) so only one rear wheel would spin...



It was fun but driving like that, the one rear tire would last about 2 weeks, and I did my replacement tire shopping at the junk yard.

Kids, don't do this at home... 

JR

PS: that red falcon in the background was my step-brother's car. It had a 260 c.i. V8

[John Rutirasiri]

Hi - I have been using Behringer EP 2500's for about 5 years now. I would like to step it up to a better quality amp.  Can anyone tell me if there is a tonal quality difference between amps?

Some say an amp is an amp but I am not convinced of that.

Thoughts anyone?

For subwoofer application, I can hear the difference between amps.  For mids and highs, in live sound settings it's very difficult to tell the difference with most speakers.  It was very subtle with ribbon line arrays like SLS, mainly in the transients.

A cheap amp's BOM do not contain the same parts as the more expensive amp's BOM.  Dale or Vishay resistors?  Forget it.  How using less copper on high current traces versus a discrete copper wire or jumper?  The electrolytics is a whole world of its own:  voltage rating, vibration specs, etc. 

Many cheaper amps use the lowest temperature grade components (consumer: -40C to +70C).  Most use industrial (-40C to +85C), while touring amps use -40C to +105C and automotive-rated (-40C to +125C) = for critical parts.

So rather than sound quality (which is important), I think more crucial is reliability and MTBF.  If your Behringer amps are 5 years old, I'd start thinking about replacements based on the MTBF, which for things like power amps, the curve probably goes parabolic past 5 years of constant usage.

JR

[Lyle Williams]

The B bashing is getting old.  Pop the lid and you'll find 105 deg electrolytics.

[John Roberts {JR}]

For subwoofer application, I can hear the difference between amps.  For mids and highs, in live sound settings it's very difficult to tell the difference with most speakers.  It was very subtle with ribbon line arrays like SLS, mainly in the transients.

Sub are more likely to be run into clipping... When clipped PS ripple voltage (a simple function of reservoir capacitor size) will be imposed on the LF audio envelope. You should be able to tell when an amp is clipping by looking for blinking red LEDs. If you hear a difference when the amps aren't clipping, then I'm impressed.

A cheap amp's BOM do not contain the same parts as the more expensive amp's BOM.  Dale or Vishay resistors?  Forget it.  How using less copper on high current traces versus a discrete copper wire or jumper?  The electrolytics is a whole world of its own:  voltage rating, vibration specs, etc. 

While I have seen measurable distortion from a feedback resistor's voltage coefficient (resistance changes with voltage)..  This was measurable not audible, and easily avoided for a few pennies more.

Many cheaper amps use the lowest temperature grade components (consumer: -40C to +70C).  Most use industrial (-40C to +85C), while touring amps use -40C to +105C and automotive-rated (-40C to +125C) = for critical parts.

Fairly straightforward calculus. Caps used in hot environments need to rated for the higher ambient temps.

So rather than sound quality (which is important), I think more crucial is reliability and MTBF.  If your Behringer amps are 5 years old, I'd start thinking about replacements based on the MTBF, which for things like power amps, the curve probably goes parabolic past 5 years of constant usage.

JR

An inexpensive (value) amp still working after 5 years of hard use deserves a quiet retirement celebration. Back in the day amps were designed to run forever, or just about. Now the value customers will not pay the toll to support serious long duty amps (Install amps are perhaps an exception). That said the value of modern PA amps is pretty remarkable...

I wish I had those modern light weight wonders to sell instead of the back-breakers du jour.     

JR

[John Rutirasiri]

The B bashing is getting old.  Pop the lid and you'll find 105 deg electrolytics.

Not B-bashing at all.  For the most part, you get what you pay for in pro audio (but not always...X32 being an exception.)

Electrolytics may be +105C, but are all other components +105C?  Current rating on the IGBTs?  Transformer size?  Heatsink material?  Fan CFM?  Thermal shock during DV?  ICT?  X-ray?  What does GR&R data look like?  How many hours of burn-in?  There's much to manufacturing reliable electronics, and none of it is free.

As far as subs sounding different between amps...put a Crown XLS up against an Itech, run it at real world levels and I yes you'll hear a difference. 

Best,
JR

[Brian Jojade]

Only amp spec I care about is ROI.

Direct ROI is FAR better on cheap garbage gear.  It's SO easy to buy $400 speakers and rent them out for $60.  But try to get $225 renting out a $1500 speaker. Much harder to accomplish.

Resale percentages on lower end gear are also much better.  People that want high end stuff typically buy new. The market for used high end isn't as deep, thus the resale prices aren't as great.

If ROI was my ONLY consideration in spec on equipment, I'd have a lot more cheap crap.  I don't.

[John Roberts {JR}]

You did set up the 105'C  capacitor straw man.... 

I really hate defending Behringer, and I don't think anybody is claiming that they sell an uber-high reliability engineered design. I don't believe anybody does in the value market segment. The market feedback seems to bear out that they meet customer expectations.
====

By "real world levels" do you mean clipped? 

JR

[Stuart Cunningham]

Just because we can't measure it doesn't mean we can't hear it.

Being a Glaswegian, Stuart's likely listened to a bunch of Linn (not Roger) and other stuff, and knows how to listen comparatively.  What say ye, Stuart?

You have me bang to rights. I worked for Linn for a while and consequently spent a lot of time listening.

It was, however in a job previous to that where I was subjected to comparative listening tests of components that left me feeling like I was looking at a nude monarch.

Anyone else tried listening to differences between two inductors of the same value in a passive crossover?

[Ivan Beaver]

You have me bang to rights. I worked for Linn for a while and consequently spent a lot of time listening.

It was, however in a job previous to that where I was subjected to comparative listening tests of components that left me feeling like I was looking at a nude monarch.

Anyone else tried listening to differences between two inductors of the same value in a passive crossover?

So let's say you can hear some "difference".

How do you know which one is "correct"?

[Lyle Williams]

Here is an exercise.  Sort the following list into an order of your choosing, from "quality most important" to "quality least important".

Cables
Power distribution
Lights
Mains
Subs
Monitors
Mics
Mic stands
DIs
Mixers
Amps
Roadcases
Vehicle

I've never been saying Behringer is a go-to brand for pro amps.  Just that if you've got EP2500's (prob the best amp Behr ever made) there are probably a bunch of other things higher on the priority list than new amps.

[ProSoundWeb Community]