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Author Topic: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?  (Read 10605 times)

Mike Sokol

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Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« on: March 05, 2015, 07:47:43 PM »

I'm consulting on a sound system setup for a local vineyard that wants to do a number of outside music shows over the summer. However, there's a few houses down the hill approximately 1,000 feet away from where the band will be happening, and they're not happy about hearing ANY music. As soon as the weather gets nice I'm going to run a decibel plot using some big speakers to simulate the actual band systems, but I'm pretty sure the thump is going to carry down the hill. While I've read about cardioid subs being used to focus energy away from the stage and more towards the room, can they actually be aimed away from the houses in question to reduce thump? If so, just how many dB reduction is possible on the "quiet" side of the pattern? Where do I begin studying about this? Thanks for any insight you can provide. 

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 07:54:26 PM »

I am assuming the houses are on the back side of the stage?  "down hill" does not state which side they are on.

Directional subs can help-but acoustics (specifically subs) can do some weird and unexpected things outside.

Here is an interesting link on how acoustics affected the outcome of various battles in the Civil War.

http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/roger.hamernik/CDS_344/PDF_Files/Echos.pdf
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 07:58:51 PM »

I am assuming the houses are on the back side of the stage?  "down hill" does not state which side they are on.

Directional subs can help-but acoustics (specifically subs) can do some weird and unexpected things outside.

Here is an interesting link on how acoustics affected the outcome of various battles in the Civil War.

http://faculty.plattsburgh.edu/roger.hamernik/CDS_344/PDF_Files/Echos.pdf

Yes, the houses are on the backside of the stage. Is this something we can discuss off-line? If so, PM me...

jason misterka

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 08:17:45 PM »

Yes, the houses are on the backside of the stage. Is this something we can discuss off-line? If so, PM me...

Definitely worth trying if the houses are behind.  You may be surprised at how much it helps.

Jason
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 09:20:56 PM »

Yes, the houses are on the backside of the stage. Is this something we can discuss off-line? If so, PM me...
If the houses are only 1000' feet away-then having reduced sub energy is only going to help part of your problem.

It is often not discussed (or thought about), how much energy comes off the back of the full range cabinets.

Very often with line arrays- there is a lot of energy (sometimes almost as much as out front) coming of the back side.

This is where having directional full range cabinets, that have pattern control to a low freq, are beneficial.  Keeping the energy where you want it and not where you don't.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 09:51:49 PM »

If the houses are only 1000' feet away-then having reduced sub energy is only going to help part of your problem.

It is often not discussed (or thought about), how much energy comes off the back of the full range cabinets.

Very often with line arrays- there is a lot of energy (sometimes almost as much as out front) coming of the back side.

This is where having directional full range cabinets, that have pattern control to a low freq, are beneficial.  Keeping the energy where you want it and not where you don't.

I have noticed that line-array cabinets project to the back as well. However, some of the production riders I've seen for upcoming acts call for line arrays so I would have to present a convincing argument for directional full range cabinets. 

I seem to remember than my Altec A7 cabinets back in the 70's had a pretty  forward pattern, even down into the low mid frequencies. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 07:44:25 AM »

I have noticed that line-array cabinets project to the back as well. However, some of the production riders I've seen for upcoming acts call for line arrays so I would have to present a convincing argument for directional full range cabinets. 

I seem to remember than my Altec A7 cabinets back in the 70's had a pretty  forward pattern, even down into the low mid frequencies. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?
One way to approach this (but I doubt it will work) is to tell the BE they have a choice of either using the products on the rider-but they have to keep the levels down behind the stage (as measured somewhere), or if they are willing to use a different approach with the mains, they can get louder.

Yes the A7 was an example of using a large horn (to a certain extent) for both the HF and the low freq.

This helps to keep the energy where it needs to go.

Some other examples of good forward directivity were old Community horns (they still make a few), JBL 4560/4550s, some EV products some Martin products and so forth.

SIZE matters when it it talking about pattern control.

Line arrays have some pattern control in the vertical (along with a bunch of lobes shooting out-but people don't want to talk about that), but they have next to no horizontal control-so it wraps around behind the cabinets-and because of the same 'focusing" going on in the front-the same thing happens in the rear-so there is a lot of energy coming out.

The physical arrays have a pattern that is 180° away from the main axis, but the steerable arrays have a pattern that points in the same direction (typically down) as the main beam-except on the back side.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2015, 09:17:43 AM »


Line arrays have some pattern control in the vertical (along with a bunch of lobes shooting out-but people don't want to talk about that), but they have next to no horizontal control-so it wraps around behind the cabinets-and because of the same 'focusing" going on in the front-the same thing happens in the rear-so there is a lot of energy coming out.


Some prediction programs show all the radiated energy, not just what sums in front of the array.
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Merlijn van Veen

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2015, 03:19:38 PM »

In The Netherlands we have an open-air amphitheater that dealt with similar problems. In addition to cardioid subs, the treated their venue with TexLnt made from Doscha sheepwool and supposedly it works very well. No more complaints.

http://www.eventacoustics.com/TexLnt.aspx

http://www.all-areas.nl/pagina/22/texlnt-mobile-air-wall
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 04:57:19 PM by Merlijn van Veen »
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Lyle Williams

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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 05:36:26 AM »

and they're not happy about hearing ANY music.

Expectation management will play a big part.  Obviously they will hear it if they are outside.

If they are inside a reasonably soundproofed house with the TV on, then they shouldn't notice. 

Unless they want to notice.
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Re: Will cardioid subs reduce thump to the neighbors?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 05:36:26 AM »


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