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Author Topic: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?  (Read 15646 times)

Jack Gill

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Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« on: February 27, 2015, 06:52:00 PM »

We are in a facility that seats approximately 650 people. 

-It is wider than it is deep:  About 60' from the front of stage to the back wall and around 110' wide. 

-It has a ceiling height of about 16' and the ceiling is covered with spray foam insulation.

-There is no acoustical treatment of any type on the walls.

We are having significant sound issues with our current install of four Meyer box speakers.  They will not seem to provide the throw we need for the room.  After a certain point in the auditorium, there is simply no sufficient coverage. Admittedly, we do not have a Galileo processor at the moment, but I'm not sure installing it would resolve the issues, so we have held off on making the investment. 

A major concert was recently held in our facility and unlike our worship services, that night the sound was great.  Of course, they had fantastic sound engineers, but I think their system had a lot to do with the upgrade in sound, because there were no dead spaces.  They used four line-arrays on each side, ground stacked (on the stage), pole mounted over one sub per side.  We are considering going with this approach, because we have another sanctuary that the Meyer box speakers could more suitably be moved to. 

Regarding ground mounting the line arrays on our main stage, we are more concerned about functionality than the cosmetics, so that is not an issue when it comes to stage design.  We really need a driving sound, because is important to the DNA of who we are -- and we are willing to do whatever we need to do to make that happen.  Money, of course, being our only obstacle.

As we consider possibilities, I would love feedback on any of the things I have mentioned, but also feedback on recommended brands of line arrays.

Right now we are considering:

Meyer line arrays

or

QSC wide-line arrays

The difference in price is about $20,000.

I've heard that JBL's actually have a better high-end than the QSC, as the QSC speakers can become somewhat distorted at certain frequency levels?  Should we drop our consideration of QSC and move to JBL altogether?

I look forward to hearing your feedback! Thank you for any help and direction you can provide.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2015, 07:14:19 PM »

We are in a facility that seats approximately 650 people. 

-It is wider than it is deep:  About 60' from the front of stage to the back wall and around 110' wide. 

-It has a ceiling height of about 16' and the ceiling is covered with spray foam insulation.

-There is no acoustical treatment of any type on the walls.

We are having significant sound issues with our current install of four Meyer box speakers.  They will not seem to provide the throw we need for the room.  After a certain point in the auditorium, there is simply no sufficient coverage. Admittedly, we do not have a Galileo processor at the moment, but I'm not sure installing it would resolve the issues, so we have held off on making the investment. 

A major concert was recently held in our facility and unlike our worship services, that night the sound was great.  Of course, they had fantastic sound engineers, but I think their system had a lot to do with the upgrade in sound, because there were no dead spaces.  They used four line-arrays on each side, ground stacked (on the stage), pole mounted over one sub per side.  We are considering going with this approach, because we have another sanctuary that the Meyer box speakers could more suitably be moved to. 

Regarding ground mounting the line arrays on our main stage, we are more concerned about functionality than the cosmetics, so that is not an issue when it comes to stage design.  We really need a driving sound, because is important to the DNA of who we are -- and we are willing to do whatever we need to do to make that happen.  Money, of course, being our only obstacle.

As we consider possibilities, I would love feedback on any of the things I have mentioned, but also feedback on recommended brands of line arrays.

Right now we are considering:

Meyer line arrays

or

QSC wide-line arrays

The difference in price is about $20,000.

I've heard that JBL's actually have a better high-end than the QSC, as the QSC speakers can become somewhat distorted at certain frequency levels?  Should we drop our consideration of QSC and move to JBL altogether?

I look forward to hearing your feedback! Thank you for any help and direction you can provide.
A room that is wider than deep is not a "line array" room.

4 elements a side is not a "line array"

If your current speakers are not installed where they should be-then no amount of processing will make it right.

If you liked the system that was brought in-then why not just get that one?

That makes the most sense to me.

It is not so much the brand-but rather the specific model number.  There are all sorts of sizes of line arrays-from small to large made by various manufacturers-and they do not all perform the same.

Maybe some photos or drawings of your current system could help figure out your current problem.

But don't just look for a "magic bullet".  Identify the REAL problem and THEN figure out a solution.
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Jack Gill

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 08:48:20 PM »

A room that is wider than deep is not a "line array" room.

4 elements a side is not a "line array"

If your current speakers are not installed where they should be-then no amount of processing will make it right.

If you liked the system that was brought in-then why not just get that one?

That makes the most sense to me.

It is not so much the brand-but rather the specific model number.  There are all sorts of sizes of line arrays-from small to large made by various manufacturers-and they do not all perform the same.

Maybe some photos or drawings of your current system could help figure out your current problem.

But don't just look for a "magic bullet".  Identify the REAL problem and THEN figure out a solution.


I am away from the facility at the moment. I will attempt to acquire pics soon.

I am not a pro in this field, as a result, I do have some limitations in my understanding of the technical terms. My role is to facilitate a purchase on behalf of the church.  If the brand refers to the item as line array, what disqualifies it from actually being "line array"? Is it because the suggested application of four elements per side is perhaps more of a point source approach -- or am I confused altogether?

What is your recommendation for wide rooms? It seems our real problem is a lack of coverage across the width of the room.

The system that was brought in for the concert was made up of JBL VRX speakers.

Options we are currently considering:

-Meyer Mina Curvlinear Array - 100-degree Splay

-QSC Wide Line 8 Three Way Line Array Speaker - 140 degree Horizontal Splay

-JBL VRX932LAP

I know very little about the QSC speakers and I've read both positive and negative reviews. My concern with the Meyer option is their narrow splay in such a wide room. As for the JBL option, it would be my pick at the moment. However, if professional counsel would be to primarily consider keeping the Meyer box speakers that we currently have and add some fills throughout the room, then when it comes down to it, our most pressing need is to acquire dynamic, vibrant sound throughout the room.  We want to do whatever is considered the most sensible.
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Tim Perry

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 09:52:39 PM »


I am away from the facility at the moment. I will attempt to acquire pics soon.

I am not a pro in this field, as a result, I do have some limitations in my understanding of the technical terms. My role is to facilitate a purchase on behalf of the church.  If the brand refers to the item as line array, what disqualifies it from actually being "line array"? Is it because the suggested application of four elements per side is perhaps more of a point source approach -- or am I confused altogether?

"Line array" has become a marketing catch phrase.  Meyer explains it here: https://www.meyersound.com/support/papers/meyer_line_array.pdf

Quote

What is your recommendation for wide rooms? It seems our real problem is a lack of coverage across the width of the room.

One possible reason is that hard walls reflect the sound waves causing a zone of interference.
you might want to brows through this: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-3/Reflection,-Refraction,-and-Diffraction

Quote
The system that was brought in for the concert was made up of JBL VRX speakers.

Options we are currently considering:

-Meyer Mina Curvlinear Array - 100-degree Splay

-QSC Wide Line 8 Three Way Line Array Speaker - 140 degree Horizontal Splay

-JBL VRX932LAP

I know very little about the QSC speakers and I've read both positive and negative reviews. My concern with the Meyer option is their narrow splay in such a wide room. As for the JBL option, it would be my pick at the moment. However, if professional counsel would be to primarily consider keeping the Meyer box speakers that we currently have and add some fills throughout the room, then when it comes down to it, our most pressing need is to acquire dynamic, vibrant sound throughout the room.  We want to do whatever is considered the most sensible.

I suspect that most of us wouldn't consider 100 degrees narrow :)

Here is a kind of stock answer: You are talking about a considerable outlay of money. Why not hire an acoustical consultant (and I'm not talking about a sales guy from the music store)?

At the very least call each of the company's you list and open a dialog with an applications engineer.

Lastly, I am curious as to what model of speakers you have now and how are they deployed. I have done demanding shows in a room close to the dimension you describe with 2 UPA-2 on stands and a single active sub. with no issues.

ps: I compliment you on the clarity of your posts. 
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John L Nobile

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 11:01:07 PM »

What Meyer model do you have now and how are they installed?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2015, 11:25:25 AM »


I am away from the facility at the moment. I will attempt to acquire pics soon.

I am not a pro in this field, as a result, I do have some limitations in my understanding of the technical terms. My role is to facilitate a purchase on behalf of the church.  If the brand refers to the item as line array, what disqualifies it from actually being "line array"? Is it because the suggested application of four elements per side is perhaps more of a point source approach -- or am I confused altogether?

What is your recommendation for wide rooms? It seems our real problem is a lack of coverage across the width of the room.

The system that was brought in for the concert was made up of JBL VRX speakers.

Options we are currently considering:

-Meyer Mina Curvlinear Array - 100-degree Splay

-QSC Wide Line 8 Three Way Line Array Speaker - 140 degree Horizontal Splay

-JBL VRX932LAP

I know very little about the QSC speakers and I've read both positive and negative reviews. My concern with the Meyer option is their narrow splay in such a wide room. As for the JBL option, it would be my pick at the moment. However, if professional counsel would be to primarily consider keeping the Meyer box speakers that we currently have and add some fills throughout the room, then when it comes down to it, our most pressing need is to acquire dynamic, vibrant sound throughout the room.  We want to do whatever is considered the most sensible.
A huge misunderstanding on MANY peoples parts (even "pros" in this industry) is that the "rated" coverage pattern is often VERY DIFFERENT from what it is actually doing.

Yes it would be nice if a loudspeaker had that coverage pattern across its entire bandwidth.

However that is FAR from the truth.  In many cases the rated pattern is only for the top couple of octaves-and even then it can vary quite a bit from the rated pattern.  And this exists from the cheapest products to the most expensive you can buy.

Yes some products are better than others.

The only real way to know what you can expect is to map the different freq onto the seating plane.  2KHz is the most important in terms of intelligibility and clarity.

My general "go to" design in a wide room is to use a wide coverage speaker that has good pattern control down low in the middle, and then "explode" some side speakers to cover the extreme sides.

I DO NOT try to "shoot it all from the center.

The problem with "stereo" systems in wide rooms is very simple.  The people on the left can't hear the speaker on the right.

And even if you run it "mono" then you will create all sorts of clarity problems for the people in the middle.  Except for the people in a narrow line in the center-some people will be closer to one speaker than the other.

So when the same signal arrives at their ears-it will arrive at different times.

This causes combfiltering-or cancellation of various freq-depending on the difference in the time arrival.  And will change from seat to seat.

A "stereo" setup can often add fullness to music-but makes it much worse for speech and vocals.

What you need is a real DESIGN-and have the person doing the work back it up with reasons why they did what they did-and consider what happens at all the seats-not just a couple.

In many cases it is more about HOW the product is used-rather than the actual product.  But using the wrong product can result in terrible results.

The How and What go hand in hand in the DESIGN-not "just sticking some speakers in that some people like".

ALso knowing the budget for speakers-amps-processing-installation etc would help to make a proper choice.

A wide not deep room has never been considered a "line array" room.
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Robert Piascik

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2015, 01:49:29 PM »



I am not a pro in this field, as a result, I do have some limitations in my understanding of the technical terms. My role is to facilitate a purchase on behalf of the church. 

We want to do whatever is considered the most sensible.




If I was in such a position I probably would look for a qualified professional in my area who could advise me rather than going to an online forum for advice.

Certainly everyone here would like to help you (and believes they CAN help you) but there are a variety of qualifications and experiences here and you don't really know if anyone who posts here has any idea about what they are talking about.

As others have advised here why don't you look for a local expert to advise you on your multi-thousand dollar outlay?

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Art Hays

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 07:31:48 PM »

From accounts I've read it seems sometimes Bose will help the end user directly with modeling for Roommatch in the evaluation phase (I would think you'd want a professional design using software that shows sound levels, dispersion, etc. in the space).  You would still need to select an integrator who would tune the design and install.
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Jack Gill

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 08:03:06 PM »

What Meyer model do you have now and how are they installed?

We are using four Meyer UPA speakers.  They are fly mounted; two per side.  I have not been able to scale up and get the model number to verify whether they are model 1 or 2.   We do not have a Galileo processor.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 08:09:19 PM »

From accounts I've read it seems sometimes Bose will help the end user directly with modeling for Roommatch in the evaluation phase (I would think you'd want a professional design using software that shows sound levels, dispersion, etc. in the space).  You would still need to select an integrator who would tune the design and install.
Most loudspeaker manufacturers offer this for free as well.

All you have to do is ask.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Sound System Upgrade with Line Array: QSC, JBL, or Meyer?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 08:09:19 PM »


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