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[Adam Greene]

I am the main volunteer sound technician for my Church.  I have been working in Church sound for over 20 years.  The Church just leased a Presonus RM32AI digital mixing system.  This will be the first all digital sound "board" that I've used.  We (the worship Pastor and I) will be setting it up next week.  Because of the churches still meager budget, no other peripherals will be upgraded.  Does anyone have any experience with this GUI controlled system?  The decision was out of my hands.  I voted for an X-32 for the hands on interface.  This may be and probably is a better system, but something about completely relying on computers for live sound has me a little nervous.  Also, our eq and crossover system is not very good.  I was thinking of trying to use the main left and right output.  Along with a separate mono main output and one of the 16 auxiliary channels (for subs) to control our 4 way main speaker (main cluster - mono) system.  Each output has massive control.  31 band eq that can cut the unwanted frequencies better than an electronic crossover.  Compression, limiting, delay, parametric eq. etc.  Does this make sense to anyone but me?  I hope it works.  I don't believe we are going to get near the sound improvement that the pastors hope we are if we don't eliminate our old, tired peripherals.   Any input would be welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Adam Greene

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I am the main volunteer sound technician for my Church.  I have been working in Church sound for over 20 years.  The Church just leased a Presonus RM32AI digital mixing system.  This will be the first all digital sound "board" that I've used.  We (the worship Pastor and I) will be setting it up next week.  Because of the churches still meager budget, no other peripherals will be upgraded.  Does anyone have any experience with this GUI controlled system?  The decision was out of my hands.  I voted for an X-32 for the hands on interface.  This may be and probably is a better system, but something about completely relying on computers for live sound has me a little nervous.  Also, our eq and crossover system is not very good.  I was thinking of trying to use the main left and right output.  Along with a separate mono main output and one of the 16 auxiliary channels (for subs) to control our 4 way main speaker (main cluster - mono) system.  Each output has massive control.  31 band eq that can cut the unwanted frequencies better than an electronic crossover.  Compression, limiting, delay, parametric eq. etc.  Does this make sense to anyone but me?  I hope it works.  I don't believe we are going to get near the sound improvement that the pastors hope we are if we don't eliminate our old, tired peripherals.   Any input would be welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Adam Greene

What is your question exactly?

Graphic EQs do not perform the same function as crossovers.  A crossover is used to divide the sound between speaker bandpasses, and a graphic EQ is to make relatively small tonal changes.  They are not interchangeable.

[Adam Greene]

What is your question exactly?

Graphic EQs do not perform the same function as crossovers.  A crossover is used to divide the sound between speaker bandpasses, and a graphic EQ is to make relatively small tonal changes.  They are not interchangeable.

I understand that equalizer are not the same as crossovers.  SOME digital equalizers can completely cut a selected frequencies (greater than 24 db per octave).  IF that is the case with the eq's in this rack, then it certainly can be used as a crossover.  If it acts like a normal analog eq, then it will not be able to be used as a crossover.  Thanks for your input.   

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I understand that equalizer are not the same as crossovers.  SOME digital equalizers can completely cut a selected frequencies (greater than 24 db per octave).  IF that is the case with the eq's in this rack, then it certainly can be used as a crossover.  If it acts like a normal analog eq, then it will not be able to be used as a crossover.  Thanks for your input.   

Thank you for enlightening us on this topic. 

You are mistaken.

Good luck.

[Adam Greene]

Thank you for enlightening us on this topic. 

You are mistaken.

Good luck.

Is this the church sound forum?  I know that certain digital eq's can cut selected frequencies.  I've used one for years - the Roland seq4015.  If the point of this forum is to try to embarrass people you don't agree with, then you won't be hearing from me anymore.

[Jerome Malsack]

Not 100 percent and you would not see the changes you are looking for.   Adding a DBX drive rack PA or other like products at higher price points can be a much better and more effective way to control the speaker systems. 

Having better detail on the system configuration and the room with some pictures will help others to help you.  Is the speakers and the mix mostly mono or something else.   Mono Main cluster (make and model)   and subs (make and models number)

What amps, and what are the crossovers used ? make and model. 

My passive 3 way with a sub is equal to the 4 way your talking  and I use a crossover to seperate my two subs from the 3 way tops.   Now that I am changing the 3 way system for a smaller biamp 2 way and added two amps, I also changed my crossover to a PA and will be testing and aligning the system with some tools. 

Equalizers will not have the brick wall cut on the frequency you want to get the improved sound and you will also find you will have areas that are not cut by the 24 db because of the patterns the EQ's can have when using extreme adjustments. 
You might see some comb bristles that have poke out sounds that are not cut by the 24 db. 

You will be able to adjust the drive rack to set the speakers to a frequency response that you and the pastor can work with.  Then you can use the mixer and the EQ to adjust the music performance and to help microphones with feedback control.  This is where the EQ's work the magic and can help things to come together. 

Having a good company and Person from the area that works in the field of the FOH and sound is a win win for the church.
If you feel comfortable please add the location data and maybe a member is willing to advise for a fee (with in reason). 

Tom and Dick have both been around and done a lot of good and I feel your burning Bridges here to help get it right and to achieve the sound you and the pastor are looking for.   

I too will wish you best of luck and hope all works out. 

[Adam Greene]

I got the model number wrong.  It is the srq 4015 by Roland.  It has a feature that you can dial in frequencies - press the jog wheel and the frequency grays out.  You don't even have to turn it down.  It cuts the frequency at a much greater slope than just turning it down.  If you still don't believe me, the manual is available online.   I'm pretty sure that the equalizers in the presonus will not do that and all of this is a mute point.  Since that is almost certainly the case, I realize that I will have to use a crossover.  I will probably donate a peavey vsx26 I have in my studio. We are not having any sound problems.  This upgrade is more for multi media production than live sound.  I just know it could be better. The greatest improvement to our sound could be made with accoustic treatment than anything else.   I own a DR 260 for my own personal system.  Before that I used a DRPA. I know that Tom and Dick are much more knowledgeable than I am about live sound and I appreciate everyone's input. I guess I was just looking for someone who may know about these Presonus racks, but they are very new.  Thanks to all and I will not post unless I have a legitimate question in the future.  God Bless.  BTW, you can read all about our system in one of my earlier posts.  Not sure how to link it, but this is only my 20th. 

[Jerome Malsack]

One of the best recommendations is to find a good quality UPS to protect the computer.  This can help to keep the board from needing to reset on power problems.   How much power problems have you seen ? 

[Jerome Malsack]

Previous post in Church areas for further details on the system and the facility. 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,150598.0.html

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

I got the model number wrong.  It is the srq 4015 by Roland.  It has a feature that you can dial in frequencies - press the jog wheel and the frequency grays out.  You don't even have to turn it down.  It cuts the frequency at a much greater slope than just turning it down.  If you still don't believe me, the manual is available online.   I'm pretty sure that the equalizers in the presonus will not do that and all of this is a mute point.  Since that is almost certainly the case, I realize that I will have to use a crossover.  I will probably donate a peavey vsx26 I have in my studio. We are not having any sound problems.  This upgrade is more for multi media production than live sound.  I just know it could be better. The greatest improvement to our sound could be made with accoustic treatment than anything else.   I own a DR 260 for my own personal system.  Before that I used a DRPA. I know that Tom and Dick are much more knowledgeable than I am about live sound and I appreciate everyone's input. I guess I was just looking for someone who may know about these Presonus racks, but they are very new.  Thanks to all and I will not post unless I have a legitimate question in the future.  God Bless.  BTW, you can read all about our system in one of my earlier posts.  Not sure how to link it, but this is only my 20th.

Adam,
I wasn't trying to discourage you from posting -  I just didn't understand what you were hoping for us to comment on.

There are a few EQs that have high-pass and/or low-pass functionality that can work as one side of a crossover.  That being said, the graphic part of a graphic eq makes a lousy crossover, as just sliding all the faders down doesn't cut the level enough, and lots of phase nastiness happens, so the sound quality suffers significantly.

The various software-only mixers are all fine, and if you have a similar setup from week to week, you will likely do OK with it, as you can get it mostly dialed in, and then the remaining small changes are manageable via iPad or computer control.  The two pieces of advice I would give are to install it on a practice night and get used to it rather than trying to throw it in on a Sunday, and to start with all the cool stuff off - compressors, fancy routing, effects.  After you get basic routing, level control, and EQ working, then you can start going deeper.  If you try to use everything all at once, you may be overwhelmed.

As to general church sound systems, sound quality is affected in the order below:

1. Quality of musicianship on stage
2. Acoustic properties of the room
3. Quality of speakers and system tuning
4. Quality of microphones


Everything else is a rounding error.  If your speaker system was competently installed and suitable for your usage, I wouldn't change anything and acoustic treatment will likely be a great place to get some benefit.  If the speaker system is thrown together, hiring a tech to come and verify correct installation and do some system tuning will be a very good investment, and shouldn't be too expensive.

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