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[Tim McCulloch]

To expand a wee bit on Luke's post above and offer a disclaimer - I haven't used a dbx driverackPA or any of its immediate siblings so I may have some fuzzy recollections...

In general, amps are too sensitive for the way most of us run a mixer.  Even in analog land, driving amps with 0.775v input sensitivity you'll have clipping lights with your mixer at 0dBvu.  If you have a digital mixer with metering in DBFS, that would be a meter reading around -24 (a twinkle of the 3rd led in the ladder, not much resolution).  If you like to see the meters running nearly full scale you'll be deafening yourself right until the speakers fail.  Going to 1.4v gives you another 3dB operational level, and amps that offer 26dB gain will give you yet more.  Note that as the input voltage number gets bigger, the "quieter" the amp will be with identical input voltage.  This is not a bad thing but our brains think that louder is better; what we don't know is that we're reaching the red line earlier, we conflate acceleration with sustained speed.

The only way to see how much attenuation you've applied from the front panel is with Band Manager or System Architect, IIRC there is no front panel display (or the display has to be switched to show it).

Mono, Y, and 1+2 input selection:  Y applies the signal of input 1 to both channels and gives you independent level control over each channel; 1+2 mixes the signal of both inputs and gives you independent level control over each channel - note that if signals are coherent you will have +6db of gain with this; mono (IIRC) uses the signal of input 1 only, and only the channel 1 input level control affects the level, any signal present at input 2 is ignored.  "Bridged mono" mode results in +6dB of gain.  If you use either of these modes without the driverack "knowing", you'll need to reduce either the amp input level or driverack passband output level by -6dB.

I suggest you download the XTi manual if you've not done so already:  http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg/LegacyProductLabels/Legacy_Materials/139548-9_12-08_XTI_multilingual_operation.pdf

As for the driverack...  connect the whole rig and turn down the amp input knobs, all the way.  Fire up some tunes and set the level you want to see at your mixer.  Look at the input meters on the DR, are they "happy"?  i.e. not clipping, but at least around mid scale or above?  The output meters will vary with program, we're only interested right now that we're seeing them work.  Now turn down the master on your mixer, turn up the amp levels full, and then bring up your console master.  Is it too loud for what you're seeing on the mixer?  Turn down the amp inputs on all channels, count the clicks to make them all the same.  Do this until you're comfortable with the metering on the console and the acoustic output of the system.  If you don't have red lights flashing and it's loud enough, you're golden.  Alternately you can use Band Manager or System Architect (almost no experience with Band Manager, so YMMV) to set the amp input levels internally, and IIRC the front panel knobs will not increase the level beyond what you set in software.  This means if you turn down the inputs by -6dB in SA or BM, turning the front panel knob clockwise will not increase the input level beyond -6dB.  You'd run the amps "wide open" as far as the knob position, but any attenuation is inside.  At least I remember them working that way.... but I'm old and senile.

Good luck, let us know how it works out.

[Patrick Bouldin]

To expand a wee bit on Luke's post above and offer a disclaimer - I haven't used a dbx driverackPA or any of its immediate siblings so I may have some fuzzy recollections...

In general, amps are too sensitive for the way most of us run a mixer.  Even in analog land, driving amps with 0.775v input sensitivity you'll have clipping lights with your mixer at 0dBvu.  If you have a digital mixer with metering in DBFS, that would be a meter reading around -24 (a twinkle of the 3rd led in the ladder, not much resolution).  If you like to see the meters running nearly full scale you'll be deafening yourself right until the speakers fail.  Going to 1.4v gives you another 3dB operational level, and amps that offer 26dB gain will give you yet more.  Note that as the input voltage number gets bigger, the "quieter" the amp will be with identical input voltage.  This is not a bad thing but our brains think that louder is better; what we don't know is that we're reaching the red line earlier, we conflate acceleration with sustained speed.

The only way to see how much attenuation you've applied from the front panel is with Band Manager or System Architect, IIRC there is no front panel display (or the display has to be switched to show it).

Mono, Y, and 1+2 input selection:  Y applies the signal of input 1 to both channels and gives you independent level control over each channel; 1+2 mixes the signal of both inputs and gives you independent level control over each channel - note that if signals are coherent you will have +6db of gain with this; mono (IIRC) uses the signal of input 1 only, and only the channel 1 input level control affects the level, any signal present at input 2 is ignored.  "Bridged mono" mode results in +6dB of gain.  If you use either of these modes without the driverack "knowing", you'll need to reduce either the amp input level or driverack passband output level by -6dB.

I suggest you download the XTi manual if you've not done so already:  http://www.crownaudio.com/media/wysiwyg/LegacyProductLabels/Legacy_Materials/139548-9_12-08_XTI_multilingual_operation.pdf

As for the driverack...  connect the whole rig and turn down the amp input knobs, all the way.  Fire up some tunes and set the level you want to see at your mixer.  Look at the input meters on the DR, are they "happy"?  i.e. not clipping, but at least around mid scale or above?  The output meters will vary with program, we're only interested right now that we're seeing them work.  Now turn down the master on your mixer, turn up the amp levels full, and then bring up your console master.  Is it too loud for what you're seeing on the mixer?  Turn down the amp inputs on all channels, count the clicks to make them all the same.  Do this until you're comfortable with the metering on the console and the acoustic output of the system.  If you don't have red lights flashing and it's loud enough, you're golden.  Alternately you can use Band Manager or System Architect (almost no experience with Band Manager, so YMMV) to set the amp input levels internally, and IIRC the front panel knobs will not increase the level beyond what you set in software.  This means if you turn down the inputs by -6dB in SA or BM, turning the front panel knob clockwise will not increase the input level beyond -6dB.  You'd run the amps "wide open" as far as the knob position, but any attenuation is inside.  At least I remember them working that way.... but I'm old and senile.

Good luck, let us know how it works out.

Thanks Tim, and to Robert, Luke and all -

I'm feeling pretty good about it now. I called a local sound pro operating at a well known venue and he agreed to be present during a test run. He ran me through the clipping process you mentioned yourself - end to end. Surprise surprise - when you run through the process the amps start to clip just above the point recommended by the Driverack in relation to the amps and speakers chosen in the user profile - nice!

Observation - wow, so glad I'm using the subs. It is a different show, even for us grass types!

Thanks again and we'll see how reality works Tuesday.
Patrick

[Tim McCulloch]

Thanks Tim, and to Robert, Luke and all -



Observation - wow, so glad I'm using the subs. It is a different show, even for us grass types!

Thanks again and we'll see how reality works Tuesday.
Patrick

You're welcome.

I like a nice full range system for bluegrass and other acoustic music.  That means having extension solidly down to 40Hz or a bit lower.  I want the audience to experience an intimate performance and "feel" a little bit of the bass fiddle like they would if they were 10 feet from the band.  Not a boomy mess, not all click from the string slapping... a faithful replication of the on-stage acoustic experience.  For me the trick is doing that for 4,000 people at a time, outdoors, without killing the folks up front.

[Patrick Bouldin]

You're welcome.

I like a nice full range system for bluegrass and other acoustic music.  That means having extension solidly down to 40Hz or a bit lower.  I want the audience to experience an intimate performance and "feel" a little bit of the bass fiddle like they would if they were 10 feet from the band.  Not a boomy mess, not all click from the string slapping... a faithful replication of the on-stage acoustic experience.  For me the trick is doing that for 4,000 people at a time, outdoors, without killing the folks up front.

It's with quite a bit of vulnerability I'm asking for this - but I'd appreciate it if you all involved in this thread would take a listen to three songs recorded from Tuesday.  I have some thoughts but want to hear from you first.  The zoom recorder was placed in a glass bowl on a table about 1/2 way back in a 400 person dinner audience (room about 60' X 180' deep - about 15 degrees stage right of center.

It's through this forum's collaboration that I/we (Quibbles) continue our journey to improve our sound.  I have some specific questions but before tipping you off of my biases, what do you think about the sound, as best you can tell, in terms of adjustments, levels, etc.? 

What do you hear?  What adjustments?

Thanks,
Patrick

http://www.quibblebrothers.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SoundCritique.mp3

[Robert Piascik]

The zoom recorder was placed in a glass bowl on a table

I'm ignorant. Can someone enlighten me regarding this recording technique?

[Patrick Bouldin]

I'm ignorant. Can someone enlighten me regarding this recording technique?

Robert, the "technique" is "two ears in the audience".

Patrick

[Tim Perry]

What do you hear?  What adjustments?

Thanks,
Patrick

Well, i get a corrupted file error when i try to access this.  However having recorded many shows using many different techniques I would say it is not fair to judge a mixing technique from any of them.

There is just something about it that is different, I can say what exactly... mostly a difference in bass I think.

Here's an example- this is my show earlier this week.  The catch is you are not hearing the mains. This is the band + monitors.   http://goo.gl/w0oD6w   

The rig is 3 K-10 mains, distributed   2 K-10 and 2 K-12 monitors. 1 K-sub

Mains were being mixed from an I-pad.

Mains placement was worked out with the venue owner. The setup was done to provide maximum sight lines to the band and incidentally worked better then  2 speakers on stands pointing outward in this instance.

Another vid of Irish dancing for your enjoyment http://goo.gl/5ep6WP

If the audience had fun, the band and the client is happy an everyone gets paid... what more can you ask?

... well a covered loading area would be nice for a change.

[Scott Holtzman]

Well, i get a corrupted file error when i try to access this.  However having recorded many shows using many different techniques I would say it is not fair to judge a mixing technique from any of them.

There is just something about it that is different, I can say what exactly... mostly a difference in bass I think.

Here's an example- this is my show earlier this week.  The catch is you are not hearing the mains. This is the band + monitors.   http://goo.gl/w0oD6w   

The rig is 3 K-10 mains, distributed   2 K-10 and 2 K-12 monitors. 1 K-sub

Mains were being mixed from an I-pad.

Mains placement was worked out with the venue owner. The setup was done to provide maximum sight lines to the band and incidentally worked better then  2 speakers on stands pointing outward in this instance.

Another vid of Irish dancing for your enjoyment http://goo.gl/5ep6WP

If the audience had fun, the band and the client is happy an everyone gets paid... what more can you ask?

... well a covered loading area would be nice for a change.

Tim - Right in Tipperary Hill - Is the traffic light still upside down?  Had a buddy that lived in Camillus,  visited once on St. Pat's day about 20 years ago.  That was a wild night! 

I like the whole area.

[Tim Perry]

Tim - Right in Tipperary Hill - Is the traffic light still upside down?  Had a buddy that lived in Camillus,  visited once on St. Pat's day about 20 years ago.  That was a wild night! 

I like the whole area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipperary_Hill#mediaviewer/File:Tipperary_Hill_-_greenoverred_Syracuse,_New_York.jpg

[Patrick Bouldin]

Well, i get a corrupted file error when i try to access this.  However having recorded many shows using many different techniques I would say it is not fair to judge a mixing technique from any of them.

There is just something about it that is different, I can say what exactly... mostly a difference in bass I think.

Here's an example- this is my show earlier this week.  The catch is you are not hearing the mains. This is the band + monitors.   http://goo.gl/w0oD6w   

The rig is 3 K-10 mains, distributed   2 K-10 and 2 K-12 monitors. 1 K-sub

Mains were being mixed from an I-pad.

Mains placement was worked out with the venue owner. The setup was done to provide maximum sight lines to the band and incidentally worked better then  2 speakers on stands pointing outward in this instance.

Another vid of Irish dancing for your enjoyment http://goo.gl/5ep6WP

If the audience had fun, the band and the client is happy an everyone gets paid... what more can you ask?

... well a covered loading area would be nice for a change.

Love the Irish dancing music! Good stuff.

Thanks for the info.
Patrick

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