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Author Topic: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?  (Read 7791 times)

Brian Charbobs

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SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« on: January 28, 2015, 12:17:46 PM »

I ran across this guys article on side fills.
Not sure what it means?

SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
Do you know the difference?

 By Marty McCann

 Here is my take on so called Side Fills. Now this is a qualified opinion, and is shared by many of us.

 First of all, when I hear the phrase "Side Fills," my first inclination is this guy, may not be doing it right. It is commonly thought that Side Fills are there to duplicate the FOH mix. This is not what I would have, as this just contributes to more bleed into open mics, and will only result in the band playing even louder. Oh, so you want to ruin the FOH mix, just crank EVERYTHING UP in the "Side Fills."

 On the other hand (you have five fingers) when I hear Cross Stage Monitor Mix, then I think that someone may indeed have more than a clue. Here is a little more of a Clue: Spell it X-Stage, or better yet it should be REV X-Stage Mix for Reverse Stereo Cross Stage Mix.

 Usually, the very large stages that we find in large concert halls are where you will find Cross-Stage Monitor systems, sometimes called Side Fills. Personally I don't like to call them side-fills, because there are a lot of people out there that do not understand the real purpose of a reverse X-Stage mix. When Side-Fills are used, too many times it is just a mix of everything into two, two or three-way speaker systems that happen to be on both sides of the stage. What this does is then increase the overall stage volume without solving the real problem, which is not being able to hear people on the opposite side of the stage.

 True X-Stage mixes separate the stage in half, everything from the center of the stage to the right is mixed into the left X-Stage system, and everything from center stage to the left is mixed into the right X-Stage system. When done as above, it results in a more intimate sound field on the stage, kind of like when the musicians played on much smaller stages. If a guitar player and bass player are standing next to each other, they can hear each others backline amplifier and don't need more of these instruments blaring at them from some Side-Fill. However they may not hear that piano player on the opposite side of the stage. The piano player can hear his/her amp, but may need to hear that bass player and a little guitar. Usually some drums and lead vocals are mixed equally into both X-Stage mixers.

 >>>Is it because ordinary floor monitors lacks low frequency performance?

 One reason yes, but not the only one if you follow the X-Stage approach.

 >>>Will a smaller band benefit from side fill monitors?

 Only if they play on a large stage, and again only if it is
 a true X-Stage mix.
 While on this subject, I have witnessed hundreds of times where a small local band performs on a large stage for the first time. They don't have an elaborate monitor system, but they spread out anyway. This can be a BIG mistake! Now, they don't have the intimacy of the small stage and lose their tightness. I have seen many arguments, mainly between the bass player and drummer, about rushing and dragging the beat.

 If you are a small band and do not have a large monitor system, take heed and DO NOT spread out all over the stage. I remember seeing Eric Gale, Steve Gadd, and (I can't remember the bass player), but they were playing somewhere like Carnegie Hall, yet they set up so close to each other, they could almost reach out and touch one another. Of course they were extremely tight. Think about it.

 >>>Is placing ordinary smaller pa speakers behind the main speakers facing the band a better solution than floor monitors?

 No, because properly placed floor monitors (at the base of the Mic stand) are playing into the null of the directional vocal Mic, which increases the gain before feedback. If you forego the monitor wedges, and tried to depend strictly on Side-Fills, you would probably have too much feedback in trying to get it loud enough to please everyone.

 I hope this helps, and "if this article upsets anyone who has been doing Side Fills as a full FOH mix, GOOD, then they can keep on doing it their right way, and I'll continue doing it my right way." The rest of you can choose for yourselves.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 12:36:42 PM »

It means just what he says. Although many of us older people refer to side fills as just that, he clearly states, and I agree with Marty, that a side fill is not just a full mix of the FOH system pumped across the stage. A properly used side fill, or cross stage monitor, is not deployed to provided sound full left and right, the left fill will cater to those players on the left of the stage, and the right fill will cater to those on the right side of the stage. Easy peezy. And the twist, sometimes just the opposite, left for right, right for left.

I'll have to try and remember to state "cross stage monitor" when speaking on the subject in the future, but most of us in the know using "side fills" adhere to Marty's description and deployment of the "cross stage monitor".

One of the reasons I bought all SRX years ago was after hearing an "A" touring act who had deployed SRX-725's as their "cross stage monitors".
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 04:05:39 PM by Bob Leonard »
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Steve M Smith

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 01:18:00 PM »

If you do a search on Peavey's website, there is a good article about this (I posted a link on another thread a couple of weeks ago).

EDIT: Here it is: http://peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/sidefills.cfm

EDIT AGAIN:  On further reading, I see that the OP's post was a cut and paste from this!


Steve.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 01:21:44 PM by Steve M Smith »
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Lee Douglas

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 03:12:40 PM »


"It is commonly thought that Side Fills are there to duplicate the FOH mix." -Marty McCann


I don't know of anyone, who knew what they're doing, that ever thought this.  Side fills to me have always been nothing more than another monitor speaker in a cabinet rather than a wedge configuration that was designed to either give anyone not in static playing position a monitor that covered the whole stage or for a larger group of performers to hear themselves without a pile of wedges cluttering.  The feed was is nothing more than what they need to perform just like any other monitor mix.  Maybe decades ago when there were no dedicated monitor mixes this may have been true, but that statement seems akin to that guy saying years ago that no one would ever have a computer in their home.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 03:20:43 PM »

I don't know of anyone, who knew what they're doing, that ever thought this.  Side fills to me have always been nothing more than another monitor speaker in a cabinet rather than a wedge configuration that was designed to either give anyone not in static playing position a monitor that covered the whole stage or for a larger group of performers to hear themselves without a pile of wedges cluttering.  The feed was is nothing more than what they need to perform just like any other monitor mix.  Maybe decades ago when there were no dedicated monitor mixes this may have been true, but that statement seems akin to that guy saying years ago that no one would ever have a computer in their home.

There is no date on the article but I recall reading it years ago.  Marty McCann retired from Peavey a couple years ago after exceeding the retirement age by a few years.

I'm sure there is a lot of 'previous century' in the writing...
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Bob Leonard

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 04:10:39 PM »

I don't know of anyone, who knew what they're doing, that ever thought this.

I think that was Marty's point Lee. Unfortunately there's many more people out there who don't know what they're doing, than there are that know what they're doing.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 05:07:08 PM »

I think that was Marty's point Lee. Unfortunately there's many more people out there who don't know what they're doing, than there are that know what they're doing.


I'm sure you're right.  I think I misunderstood the target audience for the article as well.  I was also thinking about the terminology referenced.  Side fill has almost come more to mean the fill speakers for the audience that wraps around the sides of the stage as much as a reference to a monitor method. Perhaps adding the word monitor(s) is enough.  Too much coffee this morning and too much over thinking on my part.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 07:20:01 PM »

Agreed. The word "fill" is used far to often without a full explanation as to what's being "filled". At a higher level if I said "front fill", or "side fill" the full meaning might be understood. At a lower level a "front fill" may mean a "side fill" with the speakers faced toward the front rows of seats. I'll bet you get my drift.
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Re: SIDE FILLS or TRUE CROSS STAGE MONITORS?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 07:20:01 PM »


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