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Author Topic: studioLive 16.4.2 failure  (Read 7446 times)

John Roll

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studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« on: January 24, 2015, 06:34:33 PM »

Last night (at a gig) when I first powered on, I noticed that every channel showed Full gain reduction like the gate was on. I powered cycled. It then came up with every channel, subgroup and masters showing overload and the LED ladders were on similar to when you do a fader locate. I power cycled again. This time everything came up normally. I proceeded to play some tunes through it. All was well,thought (fingers crossed). Band starts. A minute or two into the song, the board stopped passing audio and the channels, subs and master were back in the overload condition and the LED ladders were back in the previous "locate" positions. The console had not been used for a week, was indoors the whole time. It did not experience a fall or hit of any kind. At the time of the show there was no PC or any external hardware connected to it. I connect it power-wise through a Furman Voltage regulator.The house power was solid, as it always is in this club.I'm thinking that it's a power supply issue and I have a ticket into Presonus.I thought that I would see if any of you guys have experienced a similar condition and if you have a fix or have heard of one.

Luckily I had a spare 8 channel analog Soundcraft in the trailer and the show went on. I had no EQ (other than the channel eqs) or FX on anything. I was really worried about feedback in the monitors, but had none all night!Whew!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 06:40:56 PM by John Roll »
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John Roll
JMR Pro Audio

QSC, JBL, Presonus, Audix, K&M, EWI, Furman

Brian Jojade

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2015, 09:46:57 PM »

Digital consoles are essentially just computers.  When they decide to fail, they can fail without warning. Having backup is critical.

Power supplies can be a common failure point. You'll see on higher end systems the ability to connect redundant supplies for this exact reason.  Not usually an option on entry level gear though.

Based on the symptoms you describe though, it doesn't explicitly point to a power supply issue, although the Presonus boards are notoriously finicky with power.  If you're not intending on fixing it on your own, it doesn't matter. Send it in, let their engineers diagnose and repair and move on.  ALWAYS have a backup plan in place just in case.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2015, 10:03:56 AM »

try to reload the board with the software. 

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John Rutirasiri

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 01:07:58 AM »

try to reload the board with the software.
+1

Firmware are stored in flash memory.  Newer low-voltage flash have low noise margin that ECC becomes necessary.  As much as Spansion, Micron, Intel, and other flash memory would like you to believe, ECC not 100% bulletproof. 

While not a mixer, my Akai MPC5000 went dead because firmware got corrupted somehow.  It was fine one day, dead the next.  Also on a Furman AR1215.  Reloading the firmware fixed it.

JR
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Robert Lofgren

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 03:31:01 AM »

+1

Firmware are stored in flash memory.  Newer low-voltage flash have low noise margin that ECC becomes necessary.  As much as Spansion, Micron, Intel, and other flash memory would like you to believe, ECC not 100% bulletproof. 

While not a mixer, my Akai MPC5000 went dead because firmware got corrupted somehow.  It was fine one day, dead the next.  Also on a Furman AR1215.  Reloading the firmware fixed it.

JR
And add to this that they are storing data to the flash memory every 2 seconds and you'll soon see why a studiolive kills itself after roughly three years...
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John Roll

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 04:02:47 PM »

And add to this that they are storing data to the flash memory every 2 seconds and you'll soon see why a studiolive kills itself after roughly three years...

Rob,
Three years sounds about right! I sent it in for an issue similar to the one I'm having now, except I had to send it back twice. I virtually got a new board out of it as I don't think they really isolated the problem and just shot gunned the fix. It's been fine since. I'll try to reload tonight when I get home from work.

John
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John Roll
JMR Pro Audio

QSC, JBL, Presonus, Audix, K&M, EWI, Furman

John Rutirasiri

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 11:11:41 PM »

And add to this that they are storing data to the flash memory every 2 seconds and you'll soon see why a studiolive kills itself after roughly three years...

This is done all the time (known as Flash EEPROM emulation. )  I wrote flash EEPROM emulation drivers for many Ford PCMs.  They make use of simultaneous read/write flash --  program memory is stored in sectors of one bank, and data sectors of another bank.  However, flash memory has a limit to number of erase cycles before data retention is adversely affected.  There are strategies to be followed to spread the erase across multiple sectors and increase the life expectancy.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 02:24:54 AM »

This is done all the time (known as Flash EEPROM emulation. )  I wrote flash EEPROM emulation drivers for many Ford PCMs.  They make use of simultaneous read/write flash --  program memory is stored in sectors of one bank, and data sectors of another bank.  However, flash memory has a limit to number of erase cycles before data retention is adversely affected.  There are strategies to be followed to spread the erase across multiple sectors and increase the life expectancy.

I have not taken one apart and with your statement I would feel that the manufactures of these digital boards would consider putting these memory chips into a replaceable socket to allow for the longevity and not force customers to upgrade like the computer industry. 
This was one of those areas I have commented on and feel it is starting to show true.  The digital boards will not have software ugrades or be maintainable past 5 years.  This makes small bar jobs hard to fund. 
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Robert Lofgren

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 11:13:38 AM »

I have not taken one apart and with your statement I would feel that the manufactures of these digital boards would consider putting these memory chips into a replaceable socket to allow for the longevity and not force customers to upgrade like the computer industry. 
This was one of those areas I have commented on and feel it is starting to show true.  The digital boards will not have software ugrades or be maintainable past 5 years.  This makes small bar jobs hard to fund.
The flash memory is soldered onto the dsp pcb and is a pain to access. I removed the flash memory once to extract the firmware...

On the x32 the fiash memory is a sd-card put into a socket. It is somewhat difficult to access but very easy to replace.

On the RM-series the flash memories are bga's so they are pretty much impossible to replace.
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John Rutirasiri

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Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 02:45:29 PM »

I have not taken one apart and with your statement I would feel that the manufactures of these digital boards would consider putting these memory chips into a replaceable socket to allow for the longevity and not force customers to upgrade like the computer industry. 
This was one of those areas I have commented on and feel it is starting to show true.  The digital boards will not have software ugrades or be maintainable past 5 years.  This makes small bar jobs hard to fund.

Jerome, I hear you.  It's all about bottom line for the manufacturer.  They are not interested in making it repairable or convenient for the end-user.

Sockets are expensive.  Most sockets cannot be reflowed along with the other surface mount components during mfg. So it's an extra step to put a socket on a PCB.  With sockets, ICT (in-circuit test) is harder because well, you have to put whatever component into the socket to test. 

Sockets also take up valuable real estate on a PCB.  You would be surprised how much difference 1/2" makes in the cost of a PCB.  It's why industry has moved away from DIP and QFP packaging to BGAs (and really fine pitch to boot.)  Robert is totally right -- BGAs are near impossible to replace.  Even the most experienced shops that can repair BGAs will have shorted balls, etc.

The list goes on and on why one would not want a socket on a PCB. 

Products are designed and tested with a certain life expectancy, or should I say, built-in obsolescence.  Automotive, it's generally 10 years/100K miles (although recent trend is to make it 150K miles).  That's why they're able to offer the 36K/50K/100K warranty you see.

Touring pro audio and broadcast industry products are engineered differently that MI-grade gears such as Presonus.  The upgrade cycles are longer.  They have to endure being shuttled across the country in trailers.  And they have to be totally bulletproof.  I think Presonus makes good products, but in this segment of the market, 10 years is not what they have in mind.  They want the users to upgrade every 3-5 years.  And they price it accordingly.

Best,
JR

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: studioLive 16.4.2 failure
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 02:45:29 PM »


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