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[Rick Chambers]

Hi Guys,

Great forum. Thanks so much for giving back like this. I've found a lot of good info here. This is my first post so please forgive any missteps.

I'm an accidental sound engineer. By that, I mean I am a musician at my church who has a technical background. So I get to help with anything new or unfamiliar since we are small enough not to have a sound guy on staff. I've setup our analog boards in the past and helped teach anyone willing to run it. We recently purchased a Behringer X32 and tried getting it setup. Mostly successful, but I am a bit disappointed with the results. I don't feel like I've set it up well and I am not well versed enough as a sound guy to know how to address the problems.

My major concerns are:
- I don't understand the groups and mix bus well enough to make them work as I think they should.
- The resulting sound is no better than our old analog board. All mud.

I'll give a list of our "stuff" and how I am trying to set it up. If anyone can offer advise I would greatly appreciate it. Our first service with it is this Sunday and I'm sure it will work fine. At least not worse than last week. But like I said, I'm disappointed in the results so far.

Our style is somewhat contemporary (if that helps any). Our stage is grade school gymnasium style, concrete floors and all.

We have a praise team consisting of 4-5 singers and a worship leader (who is a bass singer  ).

Instruments are:
- Drums (real kit in a plexiglass cage)
- Congas
- Lead Guitar
- Acoustic Guitar
- Bass Guitar
- Synth (Motif)
- Keys (piano'ish)

We also have 2 lapel mics (pastor and junior pastor), CD player, MiniDisc player, Mac computer and 2 choir mics.

Inputs are:
- Wireless lapel 1
- Wireless lapel 2
- Choir mic 1
- Choir mic 2
- Mac left
- Mac Right
- CD Left
- CD Right
- MiniDisc Left
- MiniDisc Right
- Drum kit (Single line from a board near the kit for Floor toms)
- Drum Kick mic
- Drum Snare mic
- Drum Overhead left
- Drum overhead right
- Bass Guitar (Direct box)
- Acoustic Guitar (Direct box)
- Synth (Motif Direct)
- Lead (mic on cabinet)
- Keys (Direct box)
- Congas (mic)
- Band leader mic (This is me and should only run to the band in-ears)
- Wireless mic 1
- Wireless mic 2
- Wireless mic 3
- Wireless mic 4
- Wireless mic 5

Outputs are:
- Mains (3 powered cabinets hanging high overhead. Left, middle and Right)
- Sub (1 under the stage)
- Center monitor (for the praise team)
- Left monitor (for the choir)
- Wireless in ear (for 1 of the singers, yes he is special  )
- P16 in ears for the band

The inputs seem to be coming in ok and are wired pretty much like I listed above.

I'm trying to use the matrix to send to the mains, sub, center and left monitors.

Grouping confuses the heck out of me. Right now I have a band subgroup, singer subgroup and a center monitor subgroup. That's all I was able to get working so far. I'm confused because I seem to be forced to use a link for 2 channels for any group I build. I tried to use a sub mix but I couldn't get it to route to the matrix after fader control. I must be using it wrong.

I also tried to load some of the presets for the inputs and that helped a little with the muddy sound but it still really sounds like we're all 16 and in a garage.

I know I'm throwing a lot out there. Please don't feel like you have to respond to all of it to be helpful. I'll take any tidbits I can get right now.

Thanks again.
Rick

[Michael Lascuola]

I am sure there's more than a few out here who are "accidental engineers."
Here's a few things that come to mind. 
What analog board are you coming from? In my opinion, I wouldn't expect the digital mixer to sound any "better."
It appears to me that you have quite a complicated mix; simpler can be better.  There's no law that says you need to use subgroups before you "get" them.

Without more details, it's hard to guess; but your room might just be a difficult one acoustically.  I would try to simplify a rehearsal -- just a few mics on drums, vocals high in the mix, all else off or in the background.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[lindsay Dean]

I am sure there's more than a few out here who are "accidental engineers."
Here's a few things that come to mind. 
What analog board are you coming from? In my opinion, I wouldn't expect the digital mixer to sound any "better."
It appears to me that you have quite a complicated mix; simpler can be better.  There's no law that says you need to use subgroups before you "get" them.

Without more details, it's hard to guess; but your room might just be a difficult one acoustically.  I would try to simplify a rehearsal -- just a few mics on drums, vocals high in the mix, all else off or in the background.

Keep us posted on your progress.

If the room is  as live as it is described,
i would advise keeping stage levels as low as possible.
  The muddiness you describe is inherent in a hard surface live room.
ck the the mains hf drivers to make sure they are functioning, and  are focused on the audience area.

I did a church that had purchased a new mixer and various other items to" over come the muddinees"  and asked me to help set up the digital board , upon cking the sys tem 3 of the four hf drivers diaphrams were toast eq was a happy smiley face. the mains were improperly aimed.
just ck the basics before proceeding.

[Rick Chambers]

Thanks Guys.

We're coming from a SoundCraft Live 8-40.

I agree that less is more, but during our "Get the new board working" party last night (some party, I worked and they played) I experimented a little. I pulled most things down then drove the drum mics hard in the FOH. They sounded beautiful! So I tried pulling everything up to match. It got pretty loud but the more I brought in, the muddier it sounded.

I didn't mention details about the monitor wedges and it might be important. We use some fairly old JBL wedges. We do try to keep that level down but it seems like they throw a lot of bass out the back even though they are enclosed. I see them used on-stage like this so many places, so there must be something I can do to reduce that noise. Or am I goose chasing?

I am trying to find some help with the X32 locally. So hopefully that will help with the bus/group issues I am having.

I'll keep this updated with my progress. Maybe it can help the next person who feels "stuck in the mud".

[Jeff Carter]

I didn't mention details about the monitor wedges and it might be important. We use some fairly old JBL wedges. We do try to keep that level down but it seems like they throw a lot of bass out the back even though they are enclosed. I see them used on-stage like this so many places, so there must be something I can do to reduce that noise. Or am I goose chasing?

Monitor cabinets aren't particularly directional at bass frequencies but you can try rolling off the low-end in the aux sends with PEQ to see if it makes a difference.

What wireless mics do you have? There are a lot of wireless systems out there that are OK for speech but not so good for singers.

[AllenDeneau]

Thanks Guys.

We're coming from a SoundCraft Live 8-40.

I agree that less is more, but during our "Get the new board working" party last night (some party, I worked and they played) I experimented a little. I pulled most things down then drove the drum mics hard in the FOH. They sounded beautiful! So I tried pulling everything up to match. It got pretty loud but the more I brought in, the muddier it sounded.

I didn't mention details about the monitor wedges and it might be important. We use some fairly old JBL wedges. We do try to keep that level down but it seems like they throw a lot of bass out the back even though they are enclosed. I see them used on-stage like this so many places, so there must be something I can do to reduce that noise. Or am I goose chasing?

I am trying to find some help with the X32 locally. So hopefully that will help with the bus/group issues I am having.

I'll keep this updated with my progress. Maybe it can help the next person who feels "stuck in the mud".

Hi Rick, forgive me I haven't had much time on the X32 but I've spent plenty of time on many other desks.

I think you were under the impression that a new board would cure what ails you, sadly that's rarely the case.

Stage volume, live room = aggravating time...

As Jeff mentioned, use the hi pass filter on your monitor wedges and get the rumble out. Make sure they are eq'd for clarity and you may not need to run them very hot which keeps stage volume lower. In order to have a clear sound in the listening area, you'll need to be 10dB louder in the house than what's happening on stage AND washing off stage. If you have the sub under the stage and it's not completely isolated, I'm guessing you have pretty good low end presence on stage. If that's the case, you can really roll the high pass filter over on the wedges and get the low rumble out of them.

I'd guess there's other noise on stage aside from drum kits and monitors and if that's the case, get that handled and you'll be much happier with your mix results.

Another thing you mentioned is that the more you brought into the mix the muddier it sounded, that's a result of input eq. Take a look at your stage and envision the frequency spectrum of each instrument. Now compare how many of them all occupy the same space in the spectrum. ex: kick, bass guitar, floor toms, upper toms, left hand of keyboards and piano and that's just the lower portion of those frequencies. Come higher and it just gets worse. A single elec guitar sounds great and distinct, add a second to the mix and unless you eq them to occupy different space in the mix, it'll be a more full sound but you won't necessarily be able to discern that there's 2 guitars playing, especially if they're just strumming chords together.

Here's where the men are separated from the lesser experienced men, LOL. Time to carve those eq's up to give each instrument and vocal their own space in the mix. You'll find that if you narrow down their frequency spectrum to the primary range of those instruments and vocals, you'll have a better monitor mix, lower volume in the house and a much cleaner and tighter mix.

Getting sound is one thing, making a great mix is another level up.

Depending on the size of your room, your mix strategy will change as well. Small room, lots on stage means chances are that you're getting a ton of wash off of the stage into the seats. Let the band play and keep the mains down, listen to what you hear. Use that to help focus in on the loud issues on stage, guitar amps, drums, wedges etc.... Then build your mix by adding in what you aren't hearing wash from stage.

Unless you have a drum iso booth, no amps on stage, all in ear, only a few vocalists, even then you'll still have noise on stage, you're going to have to fight the battle of stage volume and the mix.

So let's assume you have a moderately loud stage, the thing most people don't take into account is how much of that "loud" stage is washing into the mics. Mics only pick up what they hear, loudest signal wins. So as you push up a mic channel and it's getting a ton of stage noise into it as well, you'll just be introducing more mud into the mix. Using good mix technique and gain structure here will help you tremendously as well as some gating to help keep unwanted noise out of mics when not in use. Here's also where hi pass filters are your best friend, it let's you cut out stage rumble from mics on stage. I almost always use a hi pass on vocals and sometimes at a  surprisingly hi frequency depending on the voice and part. Same goes fro snare and cymbal mics, they don't need to be hearing the low frequencies, roll the hi pass up and eliminate the stage rumble from getting in those mics.

Hope that helps, there's big discussions that can be had about these suggestions, unfortunately I don't have time now to really elaborate, I'll check back in later.

PS. Where are you located?

[Rick Chambers]

Jeff - Not sure about the mics, I'll check and report back. I hadn't thought that they might be a significant part of the problem.

Allen - I really appreciate the explanation. Thank you.

I think I understand the concept of separating the frequency spectrum. But it is difficult for a novice who has never successfully done this to figure it out. Does anyone have an image of this in practice? A screenshot of the EQ setup for a guitar and a piano together would be helpful. I've attached a few images of what I mean.

Stage volume for us shouldn't be that bad. Yes, we have several singers but only 2 wedges serve them. Everything else is direct line or somewhat isolated (backstage guitar amp, drums in a cage, etc.). So I should be able to have a big impact by cutting a good bit of low end from them. Thank you so much for pointing it out.

Now if I can just figure out subgroups and bus mixes on that X32.

Thanks,
Rick

West side of INDY

[Jonathan Johnson]

Another thing you mentioned is that the more you brought into the mix the muddier it sounded, that's a result of input eq. Take a look at your stage and envision the frequency spectrum of each instrument. Now compare how many of them all occupy the same space in the spectrum. ex: kick, bass guitar, floor toms, upper toms, left hand of keyboards and piano and that's just the lower portion of those frequencies. Come higher and it just gets worse. A single elec guitar sounds great and distinct, add a second to the mix and unless you eq them to occupy different space in the mix, it'll be a more full sound but you won't necessarily be able to discern that there's 2 guitars playing, especially if they're just strumming chords together.

Here's where the men are separated from the lesser experienced men, LOL. Time to carve those eq's up to give each instrument and vocal their own space in the mix. You'll find that if you narrow down their frequency spectrum to the primary range of those instruments and vocals, you'll have a better monitor mix, lower volume in the house and a much cleaner and tighter mix.

So if I'm reading this right, you want to EQ each instrument to give emphasis to the fundamentals (or deemphasize the harmonics). The idea is that the harmonics from the drums will interfere with the fundamentals from the bass creating muddiness; harmonics from the bass interfere with fundamentals from the lead guitar; harmonics from the lead interfere with fundamentals from the keys; and so forth.

By reducing the strength of the harmonics (and/or the less-important, lower-order fundamentals) of each instrument or voice, you carve out space for the other instruments to come forth out of the mix.

Is that a correct interpretation of what you are saying?

[lindsay Dean]

So if I'm reading this right, you want to EQ each instrument to give emphasis to the fundamentals (or deemphasize the harmonics). The idea is that the harmonics from the drums will interfere with the fundamentals from the bass creating muddiness; harmonics from the bass interfere with fundamentals from the lead guitar; harmonics from the lead interfere with fundamentals from the keys; and so forth.

By reducing the strength of the harmonics (and/or the less-important, lower-order fundamentals) of each instrument or voice, you carve out space for the other instruments to come forth out of the mix.

Is that a correct interpretation of what you are saying?

 Ck to make sure there is not a compressor in the signal chain,  ck your amps for limiter settings

[Steve M Smith]

I am sure there's more than a few out here who are "accidental engineers."

Yes.  Thirty years ago I was accidentally in a local music shop and the owner wanted someone to go out with a system.  I heard myself say "I'll do it" and within a couple of seconds I was given the van keys and sent out.


Steve.

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