ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]   Go Down

Author Topic: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots  (Read 15123 times)

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9533
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2014, 07:23:57 PM »

I've been exchanging some friendly repartee with Ivan for quite a while now, especially when he lapses into his "only honest speaker guy" whine. I
JR
I never said that.  I have said many times that there is a lot of "deception" and some "down right lies" by a good number of loudspeaker manufacturers-even at the HIGHEST levels of our industry.

And yes, there are some other honest manufacturers.  I guess it just depends on if the companies are more engineer driven than marketing driven.

I know that I am not alone in how I feel, but as long as they are "getting away with it", there will be issues.

I feel that the more people understand what is really going on, the better they will be able to make some informed decisions.

B
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17172
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2014, 10:56:35 AM »

I never said that.  I have said many times that there is a lot of "deception" and some "down right lies" by a good number of loudspeaker manufacturers-even at the HIGHEST levels of our industry.
Since you want to get literal, how many is a "good number" of loudspeaker manufacturers- even at the highest level, that are making "down right lies" in their marketing presentations? I understand how it looks from your perspective, I've heard it all before while working at Peavey with speaker engineers there.  I don't believe there are only two honest brokers in the speaker business.   
Quote
And yes, there are some other honest manufacturers.  I guess it just depends on if the companies are more engineer driven than marketing driven.
Any company when it gets large enough will use marketing specialists to perform marketing tasks. By definition marketing types will not have the same grasp of technical specs that the engineers do. I recall several instances where forum members have pointed out errors on your website. Stuff happens. I'll bet a rigorous inspection could find at least one mistake in every manufacturer's documentation. I once had a magazine ad run with the word bus spelled wrong... Stuff happens.

For a while I managed the product management group and had my share of discussions with the the Peavey speaker product manager while he wrestled with industry spec practices. When Peavey published a conservative spec, the customers just ASSumed low performance compared to other company's more generous specs. but I still encouraged him to be conservative.
Quote
I know that I am not alone in how I feel, but as long as they are "getting away with it", there will be issues.
I truly hope it is not as bad as you suggest, and you are in engineer rant mode, like I've seen before. Bad behavior breeds other bad behavior. Regarding that car gas mileage fraud, I would not be surprised if one car product manager saw a competitor cheating and decided to respond in kind.

When in doubt do what's right. Karma (car-ma?) usually catches up with bad actors. 
Quote
I feel that the more people understand what is really going on, the better they will be able to make some informed decisions.

B
Yes perhaps of we identified bad specifications and named names, but just proclaiming that "some" manufacturers are honest, implies that all the rest are dishonest.

The fraction of consumers who could educate themselves to a skill level high enough to identify spec mistakes or fraud, are small. The fraction who will actually invest the time and effort to educate themselves are even smaller. Instead most consumers will attempt to identify good brands from bad, and if we take your comments literally there are not many good brands to pick from.

Sorry Ivan I do not want to be overly critical and I appreciate your willingness to inform consumers. Just please be aware of how your comments can be taken by lurkers and inexperienced speaker users.

Perhaps I am over sensitive from 15 years defending a brand that was routinely accused of playing games with specs, while routinely being among the more rigorous. Market perception can be influenced by opinion leaders on the web and in my opinion you paint an overly dark picture of the state of the entire speaker industry.

JR   
Logged
Cancel the "cancel culture". Do not participate in mob hatred.

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23729
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2014, 11:08:47 AM »


Perhaps I am over sensitive from 15 years defending a brand that was routinely accused of playing games with specs, while routinely being among the more rigorous. Market perception can be influenced by opinion leaders on the web and in my opinion you paint an overly dark picture of the state of the entire speaker industry.

JR

Possibly so, but in my 35+ years in audio I've found your former employer to have fair and reasonable specsmanship; like it or not Peavey often was the fall guy for the shortcomings of its customers and dealers.  I've built some very good mixes on a Mark IV, used the heck out of CS800s and used various Peavey loudspeaker components in custom designs (some of which are still in use 20+ years later).

Every brand, at every level has its fanboys and detractors; it's revealing to listen to some big-dog FOH mixerpersons debate the relative and subjective sonic merits of amps, speakers and accessories the same way the salivating music store tire-kickers do.  Hate Meyer/love Meyer, ditto for EAW, JBL and l'Acoustics...  You'd think they were talking about Phonic or Mackie or Behringer.... or Peavey.
Logged
"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Jens Droessler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2014, 08:01:36 PM »

But max at what freq?

It is for that reason that Danley publishes normal expected SPL numbers and for those people that want a "high number" we tell what freq is loudest and what SPL could be expected at THAT freq.

At least you have both. and can see it on the response graph.
I said response, and that's what I mean. A plot at rated program power. Ideally additional plots of max SPL with 3 and 10% distortion. That would be really informative.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9533
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2014, 09:00:48 PM »

I said response, and that's what I mean. A plot at rated program power. Ideally additional plots of max SPL with 3 and 10% distortion. That would be really informative.
And unless you have other models/brands measured the same way-there is no way to compare.

And since a good number don't even have simple 2.83 V measurements-do you really think those manufacturers will provide full power responses?

The problem with providing some data is that some people will "start reading" into it-without having any other data to compare to.

And then the marketing dept would start of have fits.

We have been "debating" some "radical" and "telling" types of documentation.  And it would be a "challenge" to others.

We will see-so much to do and only so much time.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jens Droessler

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 64
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2015, 01:04:11 AM »

I didn't say manufacturers would go for it, I said this would be a good possibility to show what true performance a speaker can deliver. There are few manufacturers giving out that kind of information. Also, there are magazines doing this kind of measurement. In Germany we have the "Production Partner", and they have been doing measurements the same way for at least 15 years and they have debunked a lot of performance claims over the years. Some manufacturers even let the authors measure a system just to have "clean" measurements, without publishing a test in the magazine, but publishing the data on their spec sheet. That's a thing I think any professional manufacturer should consider. Of course this is pure idealism talking.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9533
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2015, 08:06:00 AM »

I didn't say manufacturers would go for it, I said this would be a good possibility to show what true performance a speaker can deliver. There are few manufacturers giving out that kind of information. Also, there are magazines doing this kind of measurement. In Germany we have the "Production Partner", and they have been doing measurements the same way for at least 15 years and they have debunked a lot of performance claims over the years. Some manufacturers even let the authors measure a system just to have "clean" measurements, without publishing a test in the magazine, but publishing the data on their spec sheet. That's a thing I think any professional manufacturer should consider. Of course this is pure idealism talking.
The problem I see is that most people in our industry simply don't have a clue what they are looking at when they look at some "measurements".

So they just take the "simple numbers" from the front of the spec sheet and call it "fact".

The thing is-you could take a simple freq response (now how much smoothing is applied is a different story---) and give it to a number of people and ask them to come up with some specs and you would end up with different sets of "simple numbers" from THE SAME measurement.

Who is correct"? Probably all (or hopefully most) of them.

It just depends on how you "read" the numbers on the measurement.

Hence the need for the average user to be able to understand what the graphs mean and know how to read them.

Simple numbers are just that-simple numbers that often leave a lot of useful (and real) information out.

That is EXACTLY what I am trying to do in the paper I am working on.

Showing examples and also describing how to read the graphs and what to look for.

Hopefully it will give some enlightenment to some people and get more people to question the specs that are given without supporting information.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Manufacturer speaker EQ plots
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2015, 08:06:00 AM »


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 25 queries.