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Author Topic: powered speakers  (Read 15915 times)

Scott Bolt

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2014, 06:59:14 PM »

I would like to address the theory that passive boxes can sound as good or better than their powered counter parts.

This is only true in the hands of an expert.  Powered speakers come out of the box tuned and setup by an expert and therefore do not require one in order to make them sound good and not blow up.

While I agree that in the hands of a competent sound engineer, a passive system can sound better than a passive system having the exact same components in it.

I think that this situation occurs much less frequently than the one where a person has no idea about phase, cross-over frequency, and delay, let alone how to eq the box to sound decent.

I also don't see the argument that passive systems are more robust since they are more redundant.  I carry spare powered speakers to every gig despite the fact that I have never had one fail.  I also think that it is harder to damage a decent powered speaker.
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Jeremy Young

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2014, 11:28:38 PM »

I was trained by someone who would not use powered speakers, for the same reasons that have been mentioned: redundancy, eggs in one basket, extra power cables, potential for ground loops or broken knobs, etc.  he was also in the school of thought that heavy meant good tone.  his credentials were impecable, but when it came time for me to start building a rig, i bought a mackie dl1608 and ev zxa5's, which saved me buying passive cabs, amps, processing, a snake, racks for the amps, effects racks......going from nothing to gigging took a lot less pieces with my approach, and i don't need a 32' van to move my rig.  i'm young (29) but i still enjoy the ability to walk the day after a gig! Granted there are limitations to everything, and my system has some too.  but considering my current skill level, and that my rig can fit into the space that his split-snake took up, i think it fits my purposes well. 

I guess i got jipped though JR! there's no rms limiter on the zxa5. Just a clip limiter, so they aren't quite idiot proof! They also weren't cheap....what are the benefits of powered again?. Haha.

Also, when i make my next upgrade, i can retire my mains into monitor duty happily. Try that with a 3-way trap box!
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 01:31:18 AM »

Also, when i make my next upgrade, i can retire my mains into monitor duty happily. Try that with a 3-way trap box!

Sure you can, they become side fills or "Texas Headphones" for the drummer or DJ...

Starting from scratch with no legacy equipment to direct any particular approach to signal and AC power distribution, you can build the cabling infrastructure to best suit whatever amplifier situation you prefer.

I'm a big fan of digital mixing though less of a fan of 2-D controllers like tablets.  I still like faders and knobs but I don't need zillions of them (fader banks I can deal with), so some form of "snake" whether control-only or carrying digital audio is still on my list of Things I Use.  I'm thrilled that my FOH takes up 50% of the space it used to and fully cased up can weigh as little as 20% of the analog FOH package it replaced.

It's a great time to be in audio.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 08:53:57 AM »

I've been 100% self powered with JBL VP mains and monitors for about 5 years. I really like it that way. Makes for a small footprint, easy set up and it all fits in a small trailer. I'm using power/signal cables for monitors. I don't see them being any different than a regular single speaker wire to each monitor. It's still just one cable.

I do see the argument about loose the amp, loose the box. I can still limp through the night.  Anything can go wrong at any time. Loose the console...loose the show. 

Jamin,

I hope you noticed I made an exception to the my dislike of powered boxes when it came to cabinets of the VP series quality. Pay 6-7 grand for a cabinet and it should pour coffee at the end of the night. I would be very happy to replace my SRX with all VP series cabinets, very happy indeed.

For those of you who aren't aware of the capabilities of a powered cabinet of this quality, here is a link.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL.VP.bro.0908_lowres.pdf


http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/tour-sound/vrx900-series/vp-series#.VJGKXWROlkA
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 08:56:22 AM by Bob Leonard »
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Jamin Lynch

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2014, 09:13:35 AM »

Jamin,

I hope you noticed I made an exception to the my dislike of powered boxes when it came to cabinets of the VP series quality. Pay 6-7 grand for a cabinet and it should pour coffee at the end of the night. I would be very happy to replace my SRX with all VP series cabinets, very happy indeed.

For those of you who aren't aware of the capabilities of a powered cabinet of this quality, here is a link.
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL.VP.bro.0908_lowres.pdf


http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/tour-sound/vrx900-series/vp-series#.VJGKXWROlkA

Got it Bob. I was mainly referring to the whole powered vs. non powered thing.

I also have 2 other systems. One is VP Compact tops and VRX subs, the other is PRX700 series. I still prefer self powered for what I do here in the Lab Lounge world.

Anybody who uses 16-24 ITech amps is way above Lab Lounge level. ;) Not many of us at this level have the luxury of having backup ITechs or digital mixers just in case of a failure. We just have to take our chances and limp through the night.

I guess I've been pretty lucky. Never had a failure...so far.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:27:24 AM by Jamin Lynch »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2014, 09:35:26 AM »



I guess i got jipped though JR! there's no rms limiter on the zxa5. Just a clip limiter, so they aren't quite idiot proof! They also weren't cheap....what are the benefits of powered again?. Haha.
Do you mean gypped? Another life lesson more expensive is not always better while hopefully it is. I am not familiar with any modern offerings, so listen to other's advice about specific models, I speak in general and still advocate for powered cabinets whenever feasible. 
Quote

Also, when i make my next upgrade, i can retire my mains into monitor duty happily. Try that with a 3-way trap box!

Good luck, save your back...

JR
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2014, 10:57:32 AM »

Got it Bob. I was mainly referring to the whole powered vs. non powered thing.

I also have 2 other systems. One is VP Compact tops and VRX subs, the other is PRX700 series. I still prefer self powered for what I do here in the Lab Lounge world.

Anybody who uses 16-24 ITech amps is way above Lab Lounge level. ;) Not many of us at this level have the luxury of having backup ITechs or digital mixers just in case of a failure. We just have to take our chances and limp through the night.

I guess I've been pretty lucky. Never had a failure...so far.

Using multiple products both powered and passive has given me a better perspective that I had a few years ago and the whole "oh my gawd, it's all in one box" thing isn't the significant issue it's often made out to be.

Taking a big rig out that gives me some extra channels (not typically whole spare amplifiers) for passive rigs, but its needed.  If I lose an HF amp, I lose that pass band in 2, 3, or 4 PA boxes.  In a line array that's going to be very noticeable, but in a powered line array, losing 1 box is less of an issue.  In the conventional passive rig we can figure out a way to get the signal up to the array and will need to do that because of the impact the failure would have; not so much the other way.

We do lots of "small gigs".  In spite of having a 7 figure VerTec/I-Tech inventory the small stuff goes out most often and those customers deserve the same level of reliable service that the big customers get.  With small quantities of trap box or SoS deployed, powered speakers need either greater reliability or easy on site service... or a spare in the van... and at the very least a plan to use the remaining speakers to cover the audience..
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Bob Leonard

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2014, 04:59:56 PM »

Fully understood Tim. I'm just an old guy not willing to change or move away from the hardware model that's served me well through the past 45-50 years. Maybe in another day or time, but alas, it's too late for me to change now. In all those years I've lost a grand total of two (2) drivers, which was my own fault, one (1) board, and zero, nada, no amplifiers. Just luck I guess.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2014, 05:46:31 PM »

While the powered speakers I own are small and generally used for small SOS jobs, spot fill, ect. they are very handy and perfect for me in those applications.

Maybe it's just the people I know but as to reliability I know of about seven powered speaker amp failures in last four or  five years. These range from MI quality up to touring JBL and Meyer models.

Tim McCulloch

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2014, 05:59:36 PM »

Fully understood Tim. I'm just an old guy not willing to change or move away from the hardware model that's served me well through the past 45-50 years. Maybe in another day or time, but alas, it's too late for me to change now. In all those years I've lost a grand total of two (2) drivers, which was my own fault, one (1) board, and zero, nada, no amplifiers. Just luck I guess.

I think we've had maybe 3 amps have show-time failures in 15 years.  Usually if they're not going to work we find it out right away at power up.

As a system guy I like everything to come together at a specific physical point or points.  In Olde Skool amp racking, AC power, signal in and signal out all are together - we plug in the XLRs, AC power, and then run speaker cables.  It makes sense especially if changing anything means changing everything, and that's what power speakers become - changing the infrastructure of how power and signal are sorted out.  That's why I said if there is no legacy equipment or ways of doing things, it's easy to go whichever way makes the most sense for the individual situation.

There are some pretty slick ways of doing powered speakers, one of them is a racked up combo of power distro, audio i/o, system dsp, and TCP/IP data switch for system monitoring and control.  The idea scales down, using the "poor man's distro", building an appropriate signal in/speaker out patch panel and putting a Netgear GS108 in there.  It could all fit in a 2 or 3 space shallow rack bag.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

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Re: powered speakers
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2014, 05:59:36 PM »


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