ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Taking over a neglected system  (Read 30228 times)

Tim Barber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Eastern Washington State
Taking over a neglected system
« on: November 23, 2014, 11:56:14 PM »

Hello everyone.  I just registered on this forum and this is my first post, so thanks for reading!  This might get a little long.

I'm nearer 60 than 50, and I've been involved with church music and sound on a volunteer level for most of my adult life.  Recently (a few months ago) I began attending a new church, and when people found out I had some sound experience, it wasn't long before I was asked to help out.

Here is some background.  This church used to have a full contemporary rock band worship style.  Sadly, about 12 years ago they went through a massive split and lost 3/4 of their members.  Those who remained were mostly older folks who preferred a traditional sound, and no one had any idea what to do with the sound system.  They have been limping along for all this time and "sound system" is almost a curse word due to all the frustration.  The volunteers who ran sound had one job - mute and unmute channels as needed - and were not allowed to touch any other controls except volume.  When problems occurred, the default was to unplug things until it stopped...and then of course no one remembered how to put it back.

I jumped in and have started inventorying the equipment, untangling wires, and making small improvements. The room is a traditional deep, high and narrow sanctuary with stained glass windows, with the sound board in the balcony way in the back. The amp rack is in an adjacent room. All the system cabling is run through the walls and under the floor, emerging all bundled together, painted the color of the wall, and mostly unlabelled.   On a typical Sunday there's an acoustic guitar with an amp, electric bass and amp, a grand piano and a choir - none of which were running through the sound system.  There's also a pipe organ.  In the system, there are 2 Shure wireless lavalier mics in use for the pastor and prayer leader, 2 or 3 AT PRO37 vocal mics for lead singers and an AT PRO46QL omni condenser on the podium for announcements.

Now, here is what is powered up each Sunday for those 5 or 6 mics: 

A Mackie 32•8 board with a meter bridge
(4) Symetrix 425 compressors - only one channel actually being used
(2) dbx 266XL compressors - not plugged into anything
(3) Rane FPE-13 Parametric EQs
(1) Sabine PowerQ ADF-4000 - not sure how it's configured
(1) Crown Com-tech 800 amp.  One channel is driving a 70v distributed system of Fourjay 8CT427 in-ceiling speakers in the overflow room (but is incorrectly set for 8/4 ohm operation). The other channel is driving a Frazier CAT46 center speaker flown over the stage, and is intermittently malfunctioning.
(1) Crown Com-tech 800 amp driving two more CAT46's flown for fills about halfway down the sanctuary and at the back pointing at the balcony.  Both of these speakers are running off a Peavey IDL-1000 on different delay settings.  Both of these CAT46's have blown HF drivers.
(1) Crown Com-tech 400 amp driving two Peavey 115-TF FOH speakers, one on each channel.  One channel was set for 8/4 ohm and the other for for 70v operation. (!)
(1) EV CPS 2.4 amp with a Rane ME-15 GEQ in front of it driving two monitor channels, but with no speakers plugged into them
(1) EV CPS 2.9 amp driving two EAW BV-150 subwoofers coming off a Rane FAC-24 crossover.

The Mackie is set up in a weird way, such that panning a channel R sends it to the FOH Peaveys, and panning L sends it to the three Fraziers.  This makes it hard to use any of the subgroups.  It also has after-fader solos, which I don't like.

I took a couple days off work and am going to the church tomorrow to spend some time tracing cables.  I did manage to get the guitar and bass into the mix this morning and it sounded better.  I also swapped the PRO37s out for some SM57s I found in the storage room, which to my ears was also an improvement.  And I re-aimed the FOH speakers, which were angled in so far they were crossing right in front of the stage and causing feedback issues.

This is an old system.  The board had literally not been dusted off for years.  I'm planning to go through a few cans of Deoxit on cable connections :) 

This could be fun :)

I could also ruffle some feathers if I move too fast.

Eventually I am going to be making some recommendations to the music committee re: repair/replace/getting a whole new system.  Right now I'm trying to figure out what we have and how it can be best used.  I think with a little TLC, even this old dinosaur can sound a lot better than it has for quite some time.

If you got this far, thanks for reading my novel :)  I suppose I should justify it by asking a couple of initial questions, so...

Has anyone done the jumper mod on a Mackie 32•8 to change to pre-fader solos?  Any pitfalls to be aware of?

Could running one of the FOH speakers off an amp output set at 70v have damaged it?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:16:16 AM by Tim Barber »
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9533
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 07:37:38 AM »

To answer a couple of questions.

Yes I have done the fader PLF mod (and lots of others-including turning a 32x8 console into a 32x12 monitor console-which was A LOT of work).

The mod is real easy to do if you know how to solder.  Harder if you don't.

Running a regular loudspeaker off of a 70v amp could damage the amp.

You are running the amp into an impedance much lower than intended-unless the amp is a 600 watt 70V amp in which 600 watts @ 8 ohms=70V

Your intermittant main could be anywhere in the "drive chain" from the input to the amp-the amp-the wiring to the speaker or the speaker itself.

It is just a troubleshooting procedure-replacing unknown with known.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Steve M Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3381
  • Isle of Wight - England
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 08:50:51 AM »

It is just a troubleshooting procedure-replacing unknown with known.

And if you're running stereo, this is often easily achieved by swapping left and right.  By a process of elimination, you can trace the problem depending on the fault either changing sides with the swap or staying where it was.


Steve.
Logged

William Schnake

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 592
    • Schnake Sound & Light
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 10:02:50 AM »


Now, here is what is powered up each Sunday for those 5 or 6 mics: 

A Mackie 32•8 board with a meter bridge
(4) Symetrix 425 compressors - only one channel actually being used
(2) dbx 266XL compressors - not plugged into anything
(3) Rane FPE-13 Parametric EQs
(1) Sabine PowerQ ADF-4000 - not sure how it's configured
(1) Crown Com-tech 800 amp.  One channel is driving a 70v distributed system of Fourjay 8CT427 in-ceiling speakers in the overflow room (but is incorrectly set for 8/4 ohm operation). The other channel is driving a Frazier CAT46 center speaker flown over the stage, and is intermittently malfunctioning.
(1) Crown Com-tech 800 amp driving two more CAT46's flown for fills about halfway down the sanctuary and at the back pointing at the balcony.  Both of these speakers are running off a Peavey IDL-1000 on different delay settings.  Both of these CAT46's have blown HF drivers.
(1) Crown Com-tech 400 amp driving two Peavey 115-TF FOH speakers, one on each channel.  One channel was set for 8/4 ohm and the other for for 70v operation. (!)
(1) EV CPS 2.4 amp with a Rane ME-15 GEQ in front of it driving two monitor channels, but with no speakers plugged into them
(1) EV CPS 2.9 amp driving two EAW BV-150 subwoofers coming off a Rane FAC-24 crossover.

The Mackie is set up in a weird way, such that panning a channel R sends it to the FOH Peaveys, and panning L sends it to the three Fraziers.  This makes it hard to use any of the subgroups.  It also has after-fader solos, which I don't like.

I took a couple days off work and am going to the church tomorrow to spend some time tracing cables.  I did manage to get the guitar and bass into the mix this morning and it sounded better.  I also swapped the PRO37s out for some SM57s I found in the storage room, which to my ears was also an improvement.  And I re-aimed the FOH speakers, which were angled in so far they were crossing right in front of the stage and causing feedback issues.

This is an old system.  The board had literally not been dusted off for years.  I'm planning to go through a few cans of Deoxit on cable connections :) 

Thanks!

Tim, two and a half years ago my son-in-law, Robert, started as the Music Director at a well established church.  He inherited a system much like what you have described.  We started by doing the following:

Label and remove all external effects/EQ/stuff from the mixer
Test each channel on the mixer so you know what is and isn't working correctly (make notes and mark the ones that don't)
Track down every cable running to and from the mixer to see where it goes and if it is working condition (make notes and mark anything that needs fixed)
Fix and check all of your input and output cables
Patch the mixer labeling each cable at both ends (use a label maker)
Strip the output down to the bare minimum number of speakers you need to make the system work
Add you external equipment back as needed (after it has been cleaned and tested)
Run the service for a couple of weeks and see what it sounds like then decide if you need to add back the rest of your speakers
Make you a list of what you think will improve the system and start the battle for funds.

This is the approach that we took and it worked great.  We also time aligned the system so that it actually worked the way it should have.  Roberts Church finally upgraded to a digital console and sold the analog mixer and outboard gear.  We are still using the same copper snake that was in the Church when he started.

Sorry I don't know enough about the Mackie mixer to help you there.

William  ;)
Logged
Bill Schnake - Owner Schnake Sound & Light

Avid/Crown/EAW/EV/Midas/RCF/Shure/Yamaha

schnakesound.com

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3209
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 05:21:30 PM »

I jumped in and have started inventorying the equipment, untangling wires, and making small improvements. The room is a traditional deep, high and narrow sanctuary with stained glass windows, with the sound board in the balcony way in the back. The amp rack is in an adjacent room. All the system cabling is run through the walls and under the floor, emerging all bundled together, painted the color of the wall, and mostly unlabelled.

Get yourself a tone-and-probe kit. You should be able to find one at your local big-box home center (I know Home Depot has them) in the "home networking" area. You can use this to trace and identify cables much more quickly than trial-and-error methods.

It's unlikely that you'd have to trash the whole system. It sounds like you're starting out right, figuring out what works, what doesn't, and how to make what works, work better. I wouldn't be gung-ho to replace anything until there's no other solution. It's cheaper that way.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:23:56 PM by Jonathan Johnson »
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3455
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 06:22:43 PM »

Also, posting your location in your signature/profile/whatevers might be helpful-- often you will find people on here living close by, and when you need "boots on the ground" to troubleshoot something, or even just make suggestions, that might not cost you more then a pizza and a six pack of the beverage-of-choice.
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Tim Barber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Eastern Washington State
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 02:25:44 AM »

Get yourself a tone-and-probe kit.

Thanks, I will look for that. And thanks for the comments everyone.  I spent today untangling the rat's nest of cables behind the mixer :)  Also, I corrected the amp channels that were set to the wrong output, so now my FOH speakers are back on an 8/4 ohm out and my distributed system is 70v again. 

The front two of the three Fraziers definitely have blown HF drivers.  I'm probably going to bypass them for now since they are just adding mud to the sound.  I'm approaching this project for now as if we are not buying anything new, although the pastor has said that he wants to get a new system at some point.

Back tomorrow to tackle mapping the rack, and hopefully solving more mysteries :) Who needs detective shows?

Oh, I'm in Spokane, WA for those who wondered.

Here are a couple pics of the sanctuary.  You can see the Peavey FOH speakers at the sides and the Fraziers down the middle.  Subs are on the floor behind the piano and organ.  The mixing board is front and center in the balcony, and the amp rack is in a stairwell off the side of the balcony, the door behind the American flag.

Another question: there is no power conditioner in the rack.  Should I be thinking about a Furman or something?

Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9533
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 07:34:22 AM »


The front two of the three Fraziers definitely have blown HF drivers.  I'm probably going to bypass them for now since they are just adding mud to the sound.  I'm approaching this project for now as if we are not buying anything new,

Another question: there is no power conditioner in the rack.  Should I be thinking about a Furman or something?
I bet if the HVAC system stops working there is money to fix that!!!!!!!!!!!

It just depends on the priority.

Apparently "hearing the word clearly" is not up high on the list :(

You don't need to go out an buy a new system-just fix the one you have-get it aligned by somebody who knows what they are doing (the hard part is finding somebody who ACTUALLY KNOWS-and is not pretending) and you will be much better off.

I think a "power conditioner" should be the LAST thing on your list.

You get to spend money and basically get nothing in return.

Your money would be much better spent fixing the broken speakers.

But that is just my opinion.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim Barber

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 105
  • Eastern Washington State
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 10:48:05 AM »

Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that there is no money available or it's not a priority.  There is a budget for this, but the wheels of protocol turn slowly.  I just know that even if I made the recommendation today it would still be many months - at a bare minimum - before a new system was actually in place.  And in the meantime people have to hear.  Besides, I'm not sure yet that a shiny new system is even justifiable.  At the moment I'm leaning the other way.

I do have a contact in the pro sound division of a local music store, who provided the church with quotes for various upgrade options in the past, and has been on site to look at the system, who could probably help with alignment.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: Taking over a neglected system
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 11:47:41 AM »

Quote from: Tim Barber link=topic=152424.msg1398176#msg1398176 date=

...pro sound division of a local music store...


Prevailing opinion among sound professionals places the above statement on the oxymoron scale somewhere between "military intelligence" and "political integrity".
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Taking over a neglected system
ยซ Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 11:47:41 AM ยป


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.046 seconds with 25 queries.