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Author Topic: Fuel for the fire  (Read 21696 times)

Mac Kerr

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Fuel for the fire
« on: October 25, 2014, 05:33:10 PM »

I saw this on an English stagehands site. It is certainly not an incontrovertible result, but it seems to fly in the face of marketing.

Since it involved manufacturer participation it may be hard for the included parties to dispute.

My personal experience with both systems is that they are heads and shoulders above their predecessors.

LINKY

Mac
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 06:50:50 PM »

I saw this on an English stagehands site. It is certainly not an incontrovertible result, but it seems to fly in the face of marketing.

Since it involved manufacturer participation it may be hard for the included parties to dispute.

My personal experience with both systems is that they are heads and shoulders above their predecessors.

LINKY

Mac

I think it will be interesting to see a similar comparison between either/both and ANYA.  I went to Scovi's dog and pony show and spent a lot of time walking the arena while he was going through virtual soundcheck with the rest of the group.  Indoors it was impressive, not so much in terms of just raw SPL, but the uniformity of both coverage and tonality.  Martin's MLA came up and the Sound Image system tech indicated that while both used many drivers and channels of dsp/amplification, that's where the similarity ended.  We didn't have time to discuss that in depth, so I probably have some reading to do...

Will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 07:17:38 PM »

I saw this on an English stagehands site. It is certainly not an incontrovertible result, but it seems to fly in the face of marketing.

Since it involved manufacturer participation it may be hard for the included parties to dispute.

My personal experience with both systems is that they are heads and shoulders above their predecessors.

LINKY

Mac
I saw this a little while back.

The question I have is what was "intended" depth of the audience area-what was the SPL (and more importantly the freq response) at that position vs the FOH and what was it just outside the "intended area"

The whole idea was to see how the level dropped at distances-but how well did it "hold up"  WITHIN the intended audience area?

Maybe this has been discussed-but I have not seen anything in that regards.

Just wondering.
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Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2014, 07:22:34 PM »

I saw this a little while back.

The question I have is what was "intended" depth of the audience area-what was the SPL (and more importantly the freq response) at that position vs the FOH and what was it just outside the "intended area"

The whole idea was to see how the level dropped at distances-but how well did it "hold up"  WITHIN the intended audience area?

Maybe this has been discussed-but I have not seen anything in that regards.

Just wondering.

The tone of the article seemed to be about compliance with off-site SPL limits.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2014, 08:04:47 PM »

The tone of the article seemed to be about compliance with off-site SPL limits.
I agree-but what is "off site vs "on site"?

You can take "other" types of speakers and aim them so the SPL at a long distance is less-but so will be the intended area.

There are "claims" that the SPL can be "aimed" to be at a certain distance and then fall off after that.

I would love to see some measured data both before you get to the "target distance" and after.  Just to see the difference.

And more than just a simple SPL-freq response would be really nice.

But that is probably asking a bit much.

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Ivan Beaver
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2014, 08:42:47 PM »

I agree-but what is "off site vs "on site"?

You can take "other" types of speakers and aim them so the SPL at a long distance is less-but so will be the intended area.

There are "claims" that the SPL can be "aimed" to be at a certain distance and then fall off after that.

I would love to see some measured data both before you get to the "target distance" and after.  Just to see the difference.

And more than just a simple SPL-freq response would be really nice.

But that is probably asking a bit much.

I know that one of the frequent posters here is from the Isle of Wright.  It's my understanding that between the multiple stages and the growing demands of the community that festival sets the bar for control of footprint and the overall festival pattern management technology.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 08:46:35 PM »

I know that one of the frequent posters here is from the Isle of Wright.  It's my understanding that between the multiple stages and the growing demands of the community that festival sets the bar for control of footprint and the overall festival pattern management technology.



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I would just like some "numbers"-know what I mean vern------------
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 09:26:09 PM »

I would just like some "numbers"-know what I mean vern------------

They took over 100,000 individual measurements.  Pick any 3. /nudge, wink

http://bit.ly/XTFGmI
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 09:42:59 PM »

They took over 100,000 individual measurements.  Pick any 3. /nudge, wink

http://bit.ly/XTFGmI
I've seen the report-but there is nothing in it that even comes close to answering my question or providing any data.

Yes a couple of SPL measurements-but I don't remembering them "defining" the target.

If the whole goal was to have less SPL at a distance-then why not just aim the PA at the ground?

The goal is to coverage an area for the audience-but I don't see where the "audience" are is defined.

Isn't the goal to try to provide even coverage for the audience area?

So what is the audience area in this case?

Maybe I missed it.

I would love to see some of the measurements taken.

I HOPE they took more than just simple SPL measurements
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
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PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Lee Buckalew

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Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 10:12:59 PM »

I agree-but what is "off site vs "on site"?

You can take "other" types of speakers and aim them so the SPL at a long distance is less-but so will be the intended area.

There are "claims" that the SPL can be "aimed" to be at a certain distance and then fall off after that.

I would love to see some measured data both before you get to the "target distance" and after.  Just to see the difference.

And more than just a simple SPL-freq response would be really nice.

But that is probably asking a bit much.

Ivan is correct here.  I read the "complete" report and it isn't (complete).  I would expect to see transfer function measurements throughout the intended target area as well as the area designated as outside of coverage.  Simple SPL measurements are not sufficient.  I know I could not turn in that report for proof of coverage for an installation and expect to get paid.

The critical points would be;
What was the intended coverage area and what was the intended SPL across the intended frequency response in that area, how did each system match its prediction?
What was the intended end of coverage and how did each system do at that point, both SPL and frequency response?
How did each system do in its predicted drop off at the end of coverage in SPL across its frequency range?

I have not been on a K1 but with MLA if the intent is higher SPL with the most even frequency response inside the intended coverage area and great drop off outside the coverage area then I would expect more cabinets being required to cover from 10m to 100m with an exclusion zone beginning at 100m since the ability to cancel the out of coverage energy requires great energy to be focused out of the coverage area.  This allows two potential advantages.  First it allows a greater SPL with smoother frequency response within the coverage area for an equal drop outside of the coverage area (creating an exclusion zone) and it allows for the top and bottom of the coverage area to be changed on the fly by changing the constructive vs. destructive interference (apertures).

To me the test would be to see how well each system corresponds to what it's prediction software says it will do and is there a benefit to the MLA exclusion capability and how well does it work/across what frequency range.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Fuel for the fire
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 10:12:59 PM »


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