ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band  (Read 12873 times)

Mike Barker

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 12:15:30 PM »

So many things here are so completely unrealistic....

Fair enough.  But I've seen amateur college bands of musicians do things properly because they've been taught by instructors who have taught them how the pros do things.

Quote
Sound man with more power, and more PAY than the worship leader? Get real!
I hear you.  However, in a seven day a week church, and a church with an emphasis on media and technology, and with many events taking place in the large room, this is within the realm of possibility.

Also, the church invested, say, $10,000 on a sound system.  Do they turn this over to a volunteer sound tech whose experience consists of reading the manual twice?

Note that I'm asking what is professional and proper.  I've seen the "real" and I'd like to improve upon it.  That's why I'm here in a pro forum.

Quote
No noodling, no yapping? When you figure out how to achieve that (especially with church musicians (read: amateurs)) let us all know.

Myself and others have learned to not do this.  You have learned this.  Professionals have learned this.  College level bands have learned this.  It can be taught, even to the amateur church musician.  You would agree, wouldn't you, that you cannot achieve a proper sound check if musicians don't play their instruments, yes?

Quote
Real world things that help it go smoother: Get everyone on stage and at their monitor position.

This is what I'm looking for, but I'm hoping a forum of professionals can flesh this out for me.  It is, by the way, the same sort of thing I'm saying when I say that the musicians shouldn't be noodling or yapping.  They should be at the monitor position and paying attention.  You and I have said the same thing.  Help me, please, flesh out more of the details of what the musician does once they are on the stage and at their monitor.



Quote
I also agree with Scott: get some instruments checked before they even know it.

True.  But there is more to it than this.  You can tweak the levels of the guitar player in the house mix and monitor mixes A, B, and C with nobody noticing, but at some point you must ask the drummer if the guitar levels are correct in monitor C, and the guitar player must be playing something while the drummer listens.  For this to happen, you must communicate with both the drummer and guitar player.

Quote
The best pro bands I've worked with followed this procedure:
EVERYONE at monitor positions with instruments at the ready
Drummer started thump, thump on the kick, added snare, hi-hat, toms, full kit beat
They had one particular song that they played starting with drums, add bass, add keys, add guitars
Everyone gives the universal finger up or finger down for each instrument in their monitor
(NOBODY speaks into the mic "I need more this or that")
Adjust vocal mics one by one (with same finger up/down technique)
Play a portion of a song/make adjustments, repeat as necessary
Good.  Good.  Good.  Though I've found the finger communication imperfect, and have noticed a better technique of having a knowledgeable leader on stage, walking from musician to musicians, and having a conversation with each player and the sound man up in the booth.  Plus, in all circumstances, if the drummer is noodling and the lead singer is off having a conversation, the 2nd guitar player cannot check his wedge mix no matter how many fingers he has or how many sound techs are standing around with microphones.


Quote
But these are pros, training amateurs to do this is like herding kittens

So, is it simply impossible?  My assumption is that amateur musicians performing on a weekly basis in a room with a $10,000 investment in gear can learn how to do things properly.

Logged
Mike Barker
King George, Virginia

Mike Christy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 689
  • Southern Maine
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2014, 01:14:45 PM »

Sound check:

I make sure mics are working and have some vocals in the wedges.
Band shows up, and sets up.
While they are noodling I set gains where possible.
I specifically ask to hear things I didn't get to check.
Me to band: go ahead and play something.
I get house mix done during that song. Usually have time to walk on stage and listen to wedges and adjust as well
Me to Band: how are the monitors?
We tweak them.
"play something else"
Ok, can you guys hear ok? If no we tweak  some more if yes;
I'm good, feel free to keep playing. I'll dial it in some more or we can call it.

Entire sound check is 20 minutes.

Yup, that's basically it, except... "Hey, umm.. was it Jim? Can you turn down just a hair? Thanks!"


Logged

Bob L. Wilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 412
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2014, 01:26:24 PM »

Fair enough.  But I've seen amateur college bands of musicians do things properly because they've been taught by instructors who have taught them how the pros do things.
I hear you.  However, in a seven day a week church, and a church with an emphasis on media and technology, and with many events taking place in the large room, this is within the realm of possibility.

Also, the church invested, say, $10,000 on a sound system.  Do they turn this over to a volunteer sound tech whose experience consists of reading the manual twice?

Note that I'm asking what is professional and proper.  I've seen the "real" and I'd like to improve upon it.  That's why I'm here in a pro forum.

Myself and others have learned to not do this.  You have learned this.  Professionals have learned this.  College level bands have learned this.  It can be taught, even to the amateur church musician.  You would agree, wouldn't you, that you cannot achieve a proper sound check if musicians don't play their instruments, yes?

This is what I'm looking for, but I'm hoping a forum of professionals can flesh this out for me.  It is, by the way, the same sort of thing I'm saying when I say that the musicians shouldn't be noodling or yapping.  They should be at the monitor position and paying attention.  You and I have said the same thing.  Help me, please, flesh out more of the details of what the musician does once they are on the stage and at their monitor.



True.  But there is more to it than this.  You can tweak the levels of the guitar player in the house mix and monitor mixes A, B, and C with nobody noticing, but at some point you must ask the drummer if the guitar levels are correct in monitor C, and the guitar player must be playing something while the drummer listens.  For this to happen, you must communicate with both the drummer and guitar player.
Good.  Good.  Good.  Though I've found the finger communication imperfect, and have noticed a better technique of having a knowledgeable leader on stage, walking from musician to musicians, and having a conversation with each player and the sound man up in the booth.  Plus, in all circumstances, if the drummer is noodling and the lead singer is off having a conversation, the 2nd guitar player cannot check his wedge mix no matter how many fingers he has or how many sound techs are standing around with microphones.


So, is it simply impossible?  My assumption is that amateur musicians performing on a weekly basis in a room with a $10,000 investment in gear can learn how to do things properly.

The Dave Rat method of going with the flow is so much easier and less adversarial. Can players learn to do it your way?, sure. Can six year old boys learn to be quiet?, sure. Is it there natural state of joy? absolutely not. Let them play, use hand signals, use your headphones, and build the mix as it will presented, all at once. If you can't the problem is not the musicians.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2014, 03:15:16 PM »

Quote from: Mike Barker link=topic=152017.msg1394112#msg1394112 date=


So, is it simply impossible?  My assumption is that amateur musicians performing on a weekly basis in a room with a $10,000 investment in gear can learn how to do things properly.

$10,000.00?

I think you must have left out a zero.  If you're working with a $10K system you won't have to worry about monitors as they won't fit in the budget...or if they do they're going to be such cheap, poor quality as to be non-functional in any practical application.

It becomes clearer with every post (and every new iteration of the same thread) that you have yet to put in enough time to gain any practical experience and are working in the realm of speculation instead.

Do your best, don't p*** off the band and get back to us after a year or two of hands-on work.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2014, 05:40:12 PM »

Are there now two (2) posts that are practically the same? Maybe the mods can move them to the church forum.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Ray Aberle

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3455
  • Located in Vancouver, WA (and serves OR-WA-ID-BC)
    • Kelcema Audio
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2014, 08:11:43 PM »

$10,000.00?

I think you must have left out a zero.  If you're working with a $10K system you won't have to worry about monitors as they won't fit in the budget...or if they do they're going to be such cheap, poor quality as to be non-functional in any practical application.
I was just thinking the same thing...

$10K will get you 4 channels of decently nice (think Shure UHF-R) wireless/capsules/antenna. Hope you didn't need anything else...
Logged
Kelcema Audio
Regional - Serving Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, BC)

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7503
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2014, 12:03:36 AM »

I was just about to say the same thing about the 10k budget.

Quick true story, ran into the guy that runs technology for a local church that has been on a fast track in the last 10 years.  The received a designated gift and clearly had a someone come in that knew what they were doing.  Wonderful acoustic treatments, neat as a pin install.

They choose a Venue Profile for, I wish they had put taken a step down in the console and gone with HD series amps but that's another story.

Anyway so I run into a guy working at the local Ford dealer while getting my truck serviced.  Not sure how the conversation got to where it was but bottom line the guy starts talking up his system and says they were working through some issues and invited me to sound check,  It was so bad I didn't even know what to say.  Gain structure was way off.  Comps set up wacky it was basically unlistenable.  With e-drums and a virtual 0 stage level the worship leader was complaining he could not understand himself in the monitor.  The wireless MIC was set so low and the preamp cranked up the noise floor on that channel was something you would have to hear to believe.

I choose not to say anything.  I offered to help but never got called.  I popped into a service to see how they were getting along.  It was sad, they are not getting any return on the investment.

I thought this was the exception but it sounds like the rule.  I can't think of any other situation where over 100k worth of gear would be entrusted to untrained volunteers.  There is more oversight on the golf carts at that country club.




Sent from my To Be Filled By O.E.M. using Tapatalk
Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Stefan Maerz

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 202
  • Knoxville Tennessee
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2014, 12:44:47 AM »

I was just about to say the same thing about the 10k budget.

Quick true story, ran into the guy that runs technology for a local church that has been on a fast track in the last 10 years.  The received a designated gift and clearly had a someone come in that knew what they were doing.  Wonderful acoustic treatments, neat as a pin install.

They choose a Venue Profile for, I wish they had put taken a step down in the console and gone with HD series amps but that's another story.

Anyway so I run into a guy working at the local Ford dealer while getting my truck serviced.  Not sure how the conversation got to where it was but bottom line the guy starts talking up his system and says they were working through some issues and invited me to sound check,  It was so bad I didn't even know what to say.  Gain structure was way off.  Comps set up wacky it was basically unlistenable.  With e-drums and a virtual 0 stage level the worship leader was complaining he could not understand himself in the monitor.  The wireless MIC was set so low and the preamp cranked up the noise floor on that channel was something you would have to hear to believe.

I choose not to say anything.  I offered to help but never got called.  I popped into a service to see how they were getting along.  It was sad, they are not getting any return on the investment.

I thought this was the exception but it sounds like the rule.  I can't think of any other situation where over 100k worth of gear would be entrusted to untrained volunteers.  There is more oversight on the golf carts at that country club.




Sent from my To Be Filled By O.E.M. using Tapatalk
Whatever the A/V install budget may be, that is precisely what most churches do....turn their sound system over to volunteers.

Whether or not they should is a different question all together.

With that said, it is possible to find competent volunteers.
Logged

Steve M Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3381
  • Isle of Wight - England
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2014, 03:29:28 AM »

How do your churches in the US afford such expensive systems?  Over here, our churches struggle to raise a few hundred £s to fix a leaking roof!


Steve.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 06:08:59 AM by Steve M Smith »
Logged

Mark McFarlane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1944
Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2014, 05:20:50 AM »

Sound check:

I make sure mics are working and have some vocals in the wedges.
Band shows up, and sets up.
While they are noodling I set gains where possible.
I specifically ask to hear things I didn't get to check.
Me to band: go ahead and play something.
I get house mix done during that song. Usually have time to walk on stage and listen to wedges and adjust as well
Me to Band: how are the monitors?
We tweak them.
"play something else"
Ok, can you guys hear ok? If no we tweak  some more if yes;
I'm good, feel free to keep playing. I'll dial it in some more or we can call it.

Entire sound check is 20 minutes.

You're dreaming if you think it's ever going to stay on your time table. No noodling? Never happen. Lighten up and checki them while they loosen up. Most of my sound check is done before the band even knows we're doing a sound check.






I do something pretty similar to what Scott has posted, In more detail it looks something like this:


1) Before the band shows up
- listen to any recordings I can find of the band so I understand how they want to sound
- Set up your console, board tape, routings, channels,...
- all vocal mics are set to give the same volume in the mains (by adjusting for mic sensitivity using the preamp gains)
- ring out monitors
- play some reference music, preferably of the band that will be performing, and tune the system to the venue
- monitors are set for vocal only, with the mic in front of the monitor about 6db louder than all other mics
     - Maybe  a little bass in the drum mons and a little kick and snare in the bass mons
- All DI's, instrument mics, etc are checked for proper function
- Put out some bottled water


2) When the band shows up
- I drop whatever I am doing, immediately walk up, introduce myself to each band member, shake their hands,.. (I usually already have their names on the rider), tell them I am really looking forward to the show, talk briefly about their latest recording, or gig, or flight
- Ask if they need to use the bathroom, or any other logistics issues
- Explain to them how I'd like to run the sound check and solicit their agreement
- Ask if they have any special monitor requirements - what do you normally listen too?
- Drummer starts repositioning drums, musicians start tuning up,...


3) Sound Check
- if it's rock drums I'll spend a bit of time on the drums by themselves, but I have already mostly dialed in the drums (to my playing style) before the band arrived


- The band starts playing a song (I ask them to play their rowdiest, loudest song first)
- Dial in a FOH mix in a few seconds, levels only
- Jog to the stage, stand next to each musician, and dial in their monitors (love the iPad) for what I think they want to hear.
- Ask them if the need anything else in the monitors (the answer is usually No)


- If the song is still going on, I'll jog back to FOH and work the FOH mix a tad more
- walk back to stage -
- Song ends - "that sounded great"
- Talk to each musician, one at a time asking how it sounded to them and what could be different


- Second song: repeat and rinse
- I'm spending more time on FOH EQ, compressors,...
- Talk to each musician again, adjust as requested


- Third and final song
- Have them play their opening song all the way through
- Talk to band about their experience, adjust as needed
- Have them play (again) the first 15-20 seconds of the opening song
- "You all sound great out in the audience area, is there anything else I can do for you?"
- Remind them that we are all dialed in for the opening song, so if they don't change their instrument or amp settings it is going to sound great for the audience on the downbeat.
- Save a scene, back it up to USB
- Go to the toilet, grab some food, take a nap, go to the toilet again (I'm approaching 60)...


All of this is assuming the band shows up before doors open :)
Logged
Mark McFarlane

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: RFC: Step-by-step method running proper sound check w musicians band
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2014, 05:20:50 AM »


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.049 seconds with 25 queries.