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Author Topic: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?  (Read 48313 times)

Guy Graham

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2014, 10:13:51 AM »

{snip}

I would hate to think that every person who comes onto this forum with a similar type question is always told they're enamoured with the look only and they should buy another brand which is better. What is best I'm sure is objective in the same way as one guy will rate a lexus and another an audi.

{snip}

I'm not sure your comparison is valid in the way I think you intend (though I may have misunderstood).

If one guy rates an Audi and another rates a Lexus, it's not unlikely they'll have similar taste. Hence both may well also rate the others preference, over other similar priced and type of offerings.

In that particular segment of the car market, both Audi and Lexus are synonymous with understated good looks, and avoidance of outrageous design flair. Both marques generally prefer subtle hints at their performance, over the visual bells and whistles of the competition.

When compared with their nearest competitors in that market segment - namely Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar, I see Audi and Lexus as actually having a lot in common.

Even the sportiest cars from Audi and Lexus are understated, compared to their close competitors. The Lexus LFA and Audio R8 are both styled conservatively for high performance sports cars, and brand flagships - especially when contrasted with the likes of Mercedes' SLS, the BMW M6 or a Jag F-Type or XK.

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« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 12:02:17 PM by Guy Graham »
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Milt Hathaway

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2014, 10:58:19 AM »

Yet it seems the OP prefers the large physical display and is enamored with complexity...not what I would call a solid business plan.

Very solid business plan if that's what his clientele prefer.
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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2014, 11:18:19 AM »

Very solid business plan if that's what his clientele prefer.

Yes.

What makes me wonder about the business aspect of it is the amount of concern for individual frequency bands rather than ROI.  I get a vague feeling he's more concerned with fiddly gear stuff than bottom line, but this IS a tech forum first of all...
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Guy Graham

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2014, 11:30:14 AM »

It is a tech forum, and folks have offered advice and expertise of significant worth. But the OP has been effectively rejecting solid advice, and posed further questions such as:

{snip}

I'm not really sure why you think my plan is complex. Basically I'm saying I can't afford to buy 2 dance stacks plus amps, speaker management outright and it will take me time to build up to the point where I can rent it. In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

{snip ... I'm starting to feel like a virtual Mohel ;) }

Your plan is complex for several reasons...

Firstly you are set on buying a specific make of loudspeaker (and spending a lot of money to boot) that your best experience of left you feeling that it didn't quite perform to your own ideal standards, so you further complicate things by trying to remedy a sonic deficiency you've perceived, through soliciting advice online.

It would most certainly be less complex if you at least knew what you needed to buy to fulfill your eventual objectives - but instead you are asking questions that require very detailed product knowledge. I would not for a moment suggest you should not ask such questions, only point out that when you receive useful advice you don't seem to like - don't criticize the advice or the place it came from!

Secondly the way you plan to purchase this system is very complex (in comparison to how such purchases are usually made). The fact that you are not able to buy all the elements at the same time, but you hope that you can buy usable parts of a system designed to be used "as one" in a holistic sense (and was designed thus) adds further degrees of complexity.

In the quest to achieve your standards (which you are perfectly entitled to aspire to and seek out) you have chosen the most complicated system design offered by the manufacturer you chose. Furthermore it's a design that you concede is not really designed for the "ease of movement" your purposes require - more complications.

I'm not trying to make this any more difficult for you, and can offer some descriptions of the Funktion One rigs I've seen work well - usually just 3 different types of boxes:

1) a top box based on the dispersion requirements of the application. A Res 2, Res 4, Res 5 or even one of the Res 9s, which were originally built for London's Millennium Dome.

2) a sub from the many different options on offer; plenty of choice in F1 territory.

3) sometimes to achieve maximum efficiency in larger areas, or to extend the system frequency response -  choose a second sub to cover whichever of part of the passband isn't effectively done with the 1st sub type. This could be a "kick box" or an infra-type device covering roughly the bottom octave - sometimes down to 20Hz, for the fullest frequency coverage.


If you wanted to achieve the same, but via a less complex route - you could have picked a 3-way actively driven horn loaded Martin Audio top with WSX subs and appropriate Martin-badged amps and processing ... just like the award-winning system in London MoS.

Even easier would be Nexo Alpha with Ray Subs (or other/additional subs to suit) and NX4x4 amps/processors.

For an even easier plug'n'play system, consider KV2: 2 or 4 ES tops, 4 to 8 ES2.6 2x15 subs or ES1.8 1x18 subs or a mix (there's a simple knob on the amp/controller for every suitable combination of their subs), plus however many EPAK2500 units needed.


I have no objection to you indulging in what you consider to be the most luxurious option, that's your choice. But to claim that the way you presented your plan is not complex begins to stretch the definition of complexity ... and my dictionary ain't that elastic!

A lot of the questions posed here would be better directed to the Funktion One dealer you plan to buy from, as your complicated plan really needs that kind of specialist knowledge.

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« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:57:33 AM by Guy Graham »
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Art Welter

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2014, 11:41:46 AM »

In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

You can't, as far as I know, have quality sound from just DS10  or just F218. I am no expert but I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Because of that, I am asking for the best way to incorporate the resolution speakers initially so I have some nice gear at home that I can play around with and learn more about.
Rich,

I didn't find the DS10 in their line up, but assuming it is a single version of the DS210, it and the F218 won't provide "quality sound" for two basic reasons:
1) The horn loaded 10" only operate down to 227 Hz, the vocal range extends easily an octave below that. Although the F218 can cover up to 300 Hz, it has no fly points, and unless it is co-located with the (presumably) elevated top cabinets, vocals and instruments will drift in apparent location between the bass and mid cabinets. Regardless of musical style or language, everyone knows that the human voice location should not wander with different notes.
2) The F218 uses relatively lightweight, low excursion cones to achieve high sensitivity in a BR cabinet. Since bass is often pushed a bit beyond Xmax (linear excursion) the vocal range will be modulated by bass tones, resulting in a "gargling" sound, technically AM (amplitude modulation) distortion, typically referred (incorrectly) to as "Doppler" or IM distortion. Regardless of what you call it, everyone knows that the human voice shouldn't sound modulated, garbled, or grossly distorted, unless employed as an effect.

The Res2 or 4 solve those two problems by reaching -3 dB to 50 Hz and 114 Hz respectively.  When the sub crossover point is at 100 Hz  (114 Hz is close enough for rock and roll, but as mentioned yesterday requires 3 amp sides for less bandwidth than the Res 4) the low frequencies from the sub are difficult to locate, preventing problem #1 even when the subs are located on the ground. Since very little vocal range in pop or EDM goes below 100 Hz, problem #2, AM distortion, is pretty much eliminated, assuming the Res 2 or 4 bass section is run under Xmax. Only "problem" left is the small bass horns in the Res 2 or 4 can not "keep up" with the higher efficiencies of the mid and high horns. That said, if one looks at the cabinet design the way Tony Andrews (or I) would, we see upper headroom available to deliver clean transients, rather than an anemic mid-bass.

One other difference between  Res2 or 4 (probably not too relevant to your business model) is the Res 4 rigging is designed to accommodate long hangs, while the M10 fly points on the Res 2 limit the array.
Note that they are only 50 x 25 degree nominal dispersion, for stereo use to cover most venues a minimum of four cabinets are required.

Regarding  other brands- although I do prefer the Synergy horns from the standpoint of providing a better ultimate single point source, and more uniform dispersion (again probably not too relevant to your business model) the DSL model is actually a bit more limited as far as expansion, you need to "buy in" pretty much at the SPL level you want to achieve, and because of their constant directivity conical horn design, sensitivity is less than the Function One offerings for a given nominal dispersion.

Art
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2014, 12:13:13 PM »

As another guy said, F1 perhaps does have impressive marketing but it still performs well. Relate this in car terms and I'm sure you can think of loads of brands of cars that do the job well that have an inflated price tag to incorporate the cost of this marketing.

I don't particularly think there's anything wrong with that and it can be found in many different fields.

Yes, part of my reasoning to go with F1 is due to the fact it's imposing, looks good and is much more likely to get me rental because of that and the 'mystique' that surrounds it. I plan to use it myself when I put on events but at the same time, getting a bit of cash from rental is not something I am going to just ignore. The other part is that I've heard it before and liked what I heard apart from said missing punch. From what I can tell this can be remedied.

I'm not really sure why you think my plan is complex. Basically I'm saying I can't afford to buy 2 dance stacks plus amps, speaker management outright and it will take me time to build up to the point where I can rent it. In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

You can't, as far as I know, have quality sound from just DS10  or just F218. I am no expert but I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Because of that, I am asking for the best way to incorporate the resolution speakers initially so I have some nice gear at home that I can play around with and learn more about. Later they will be put to another use but for the meantime my questions were pretty simple;  Res 2 or res 4   and some qustions about the mid range options.

I would hate to think that every person who comes onto this forum with a similar type question is always told they're enamoured with the look only and they should buy another brand which is better. What is best I'm sure is objective in the same way as one guy will rate a lexus and another an audi.

Thanks to the first two guys who gave me solid replies and thanks in advance to anyone willing to further the discussion without going too far off topic. I will definitely take a look into danley products but as you say.. chinese whispers and pseudo science are most likely to bring about their downfall in the future too if that's how it works whenever someone starts to like a particular brand.

Hi Rich-

I certainly understand how brand name and product appearance will steer the impressions of potential clients.  We're a big JBL VerTec shop and part of reason why is the acceptance of the brand by our clients and potential clients.  There were (and still are) other products that may be "better" in some aspects, but for us the ubiquity of the brand acceptance was a major deciding factor.

That you see Funktion 1 brand as a valuable marketing tool should not be lost on the responders.

That said, I go back to my original comment about trying to build a rig on the box-a-month plan.  In my observation over the last 30+ years, these plans seldom work out.  Why?  Because shit happens.  Your kid gets sick, your wife or husband is in a car wreck or work accident, you biggest client goes out of business, a competitor with shiny new toys opens, or the local economy takes a dump.

So this is my "homework assignment":  do a business plan - a formal one - that you could take round to bankers and finance people.  They won't loan you anything (most likely), but developing the plan to this level should give you a really good indication if your current ideas will work or not.  How much business do you think you can initially generate with a greatly scaled down system?  How much income from that work can be rolled back into the rig?  Every time you spend another 10,000 Euro/Pounds/dollars how much can you increase your rates, and how long will it take you to develop higher paying work for the additional inventory?  If incremental growth will take too long or leave you vulnerable to competition, you need outside capital to birth this rig whole and fully formed, and factor in the additional expenses of financing (or taking a partner, etc) into the equasation.

The real issue, Rich, is that these decisions are more about *business* than about sound itself.  You can have a money making business, a money losing business, or a money-pit hobby.  Only one of those do I find attractive... ;)

Keep sussing this out.  Doing this "right" will be terribly expensive and should scare the hell out of you.  And then you'll do it anyway.  Don't give up, but keep your eyes wide open.  You need to know when to spend and when to sell off.  IF your timing is good, you can do this several times without bankruptcy... trust me.
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2014, 12:46:32 PM »

As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

In fact there is a Danley system scheduled to do a show in London soon. I believe the only obstacle is flying J1s.  I have been told it's already on Digweed's rider.  There should also be good representation at ADE in October. 
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2014, 01:00:51 PM »

As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
I did a 3 day EDM festival a few months ago.  A lady came up at the end and said thank you for providing the stage with great sound.  She said it was way better than last year in which they had an F1 rig.

NOW THE KICKER-She was the wife of the owner of the system used last year---------------go figure.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2014, 01:15:01 PM »

Damn.  I should have kept those giant Community fiberglass horns I had years ago and painted them purple or white!  I coulda been one of the cool kids!
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 02:15:38 PM »

Damn.  I should have kept those giant Community fiberglass horns I had years ago and painted them purple or white!  I coulda been one of the cool kids!
I painted the flares on my 4560s and my horns white decades ago
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2014, 02:15:38 PM »


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