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Author Topic: getting vocals on top - acoustic band  (Read 8143 times)

Sammy Barr

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 01:52:49 PM »

It's an acoustic string band.  EVERYTHING is in the vocal range...

Right on, right on, make some space in vocal range by scooping some mids out of instruments.
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David Morison

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 02:26:33 PM »

I think Ivan meant "if they'rrre nae singin' inta th' mics"...

Aye, I thought that was likely it, hence typo suggestion (forgetting the " 'nt " after "are").
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 02:50:09 PM »

Aye, I thought that was likely it, hence typo suggestion (forgetting the " 'nt " after "are").

What kind of board do you have?  Does it have a paramteric EQ on the channel strips?

If if does I try and teach the sweep and destroy method to new guys who's ears might not be up to snuff yet.  The purpose of this exercise is to show you how to "make room" in the mix for instruments.

Also a properly used compressor would help.  If you are too heavy handed it will make it worse.

First - Always remember that faders go down also, they don't just go up.  Gain staging is very important.  If you have faders all over the board your gain staging is f''''d up

Second - Make one change at a time, listen, wait then move on.

Third - Never forget each 3db doubles the power needed to reproduce that frequency(s)

Now back to "search and destroy"

Utilizing the parametric equalizer set a very narrow cut as deep as you can.  On a 1/3 octave scale about 1 graticle will do nicely.  Now slowly seep the cut through the mids.  Find a frequency range that has little impact and slowly open up the width of the cut (using q parameter)  Once you have found a spot you have made a "hole" in the mix.  Put 4 or so DB of cut when you are done and a much smoother transition.  Now do the opposite on the vocal and you have just filled a hole in the mix.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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frank kayser

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 02:52:11 PM »

I'm guessing you're not an acoustic musician.  I find (in my limited experience) that a couple things happen.  I'll talk mostly about guitar or "box", but it applies to most acoustic instruments.
1. You may not know what the instrument actually sounds like alone.  For a guitar, I find, for example, that many mixpersons eq the instrument too hot in the 80-120hz range thinking the instrument "should have more bass", when an acoustic guitar really does not sound that way at all.
2. Too many musicians have no clue as to what the "knobs" on their electrified acoustic instrument do to the sound.  They like the sound of the guitar unplugged, but are either oblivious to the sound through a pickup, or recognize it is not to their liking, but haven't a clue as to what to do about it on their end. 
3. Might as well get it out there - many on board pickkup systems sound awful - they do not pick up the tonal qualities of the instrument.  Many, many string instruments are mic-ed in the studio rather than using an on-board pickup in order to get more accurate picture of the tonality of the instrument.  Mics, live, onstage, are another problem keeping the mic location and distance relatively constant to an "active" musician.
4. Many musicians are aware that feedback is an issue with their guitar, and radically adjust the eq in hopes of compensating - leaving the instrument feed to the board relatively unfixable.
5. A relatively new "discovery" on my part is that the exact same instrument in the hands of a different musician will most likely need a change in the EQ of the instrument.  Seems counter-intuitive, but technique of individual musicians make a big difference in the instrument's sound.  I discovered this at an open mic where I had been mixing a wonderful sounding Gibson J45 for an individual, and then he lent it to his son - who had a similar style - and did not need any EQ adjustment.  Thiis led me to believe I had it set for the night".  Then two other musicians borrowed the same guitar - and I needed to change the EQ to get the instrument to sound the same as before.  There is the sound of "the box" and the sound of the electronics. Style greatly affects the souind of the electronics, but style seems to much less effect on the sound of the instrument


OP question was about vocals. What does this have to do with keeping vocals on top?


Well if the instruments are all trying to use more of the audio spectrum than it was designed for, you'll have more overlaps at frequencies needed for clean vocals. 


As a few noted above, acoustic instruments and vocals share the same frequencies much of the time.


Vocals need to be perfect and above the instruments. 


Sometimes I find it necessary to adjust the EQ of some instruments to less than optimum for a solo instrument, and let another instrument in the band fill in those frequencies.  If, for example, I have a guitar and a bass... I may take a few db off the low frequencies of the guitar, and let the bass fill in an octave lower.  I find that a way to keep the overall volume of the band down, and reduce overall muddiness.  That makes a bit room for the vocals.


Now a caveat: I've never verbalized these of my methods in this forum, and therefore never been "peer reviewed" among folks that have infinitely more experience with a much more critical clientele than I. 


You've already got some sage advice from solid folks above. 


frank
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 03:34:02 PM »

Sam...

Check you personal messages.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2014, 04:12:33 PM »

What kind of board do you have?  Does it have a paramteric EQ on the channel strips?

If if does I try and teach the sweep and destroy method to new guys who's ears might not be up to snuff yet.  The purpose of this exercise is to show you how to "make room" in the mix for instruments.

Also a properly used compressor would help.  If you are too heavy handed it will make it worse.

First - Always remember that faders go down also, they don't just go up.  Gain staging is very important.  If you have faders all over the board your gain staging is f''''d up

Second - Make one change at a time, listen, wait then move on.

Third - Never forget each 3db doubles the power needed to reproduce that frequency(s)

Now back to "search and destroy"

Utilizing the parametric equalizer set a very narrow cut as deep as you can.  On a 1/3 octave scale about 1 graticle will do nicely.  Now slowly seep the cut through the mids.  Find a frequency range that has little impact and slowly open up the width of the cut (using q parameter)  Once you have found a spot you have made a "hole" in the mix.  Put 4 or so DB of cut when you are done and a much smoother transition.  Now do the opposite on the vocal and you have just filled a hole in the mix.

That may all be well and good, but for most folk might be a bit vague or "inside".  There's an old story which might be as apt but more accessible...you know, the one about sculpting an elephant from a large boulder.

Just chip away everything that's not elephant.

Please note the homonymic relationship:

elephant:relevant
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Steve M Smith

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2014, 04:16:05 PM »

Just chip away everything that's not elephant.

My father once gave me similar advice when I wanted to make a model wooden boat!


Steve.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 04:24:07 PM »

My father once gave me similar advice when I wanted to make a model wooden boat!


Steve.

Man:  "That's irrelevant!"

Groucho:  "I once shot irrelevant in my pajamas.  How he got in my pajamas I'll never know!"
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2014, 04:27:26 PM »

Just remember that a lot of things on radio/TV these days that's called acoustic music is in fact heavily processed. If you want that sound, you'll need a lot of compression and reverbs etc.

Not saying that this is how acoustic music should sound, but how it sounds a lot of the time you're hearing it.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2014, 08:42:51 PM »

That may all be well and good, but for most folk might be a bit vague or "inside".  There's an old story which might be as apt but more accessible...you know, the one about sculpting an elephant from a large boulder.

Just chip away everything that's not elephant.

Please note the homonymic relationship:

elephant:relevant

Inside what?

Notice the double entendre dick:dick  ;D
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: getting vocals on top - acoustic band
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2014, 08:42:51 PM »


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