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Author Topic: Looking at things a different way...  (Read 1629 times)

Lee Douglas

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2014, 05:48:41 pm »

A few other things that may help, some of these I wish I had been told years ago:

2 - Play some music through your PA you know at home.  Cut each EQ band all the way to the bottom one at a time.  Listen to the effect it has on the music.  Wait for each instrument in the mix to have a solo so you can hear the impact on different instruments.  Ditto with different vocal ranges


But understand that an EQ on your main outputs or inserts is not a tone control for one instrument, because everything is going through it.  If you need more tone control than is provided on the board EQ, first try improving it at the source.  Then mic placement.  If that fails (and it shouldn't) you can add an EQ on the channel insert that will affect only that input.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2014, 07:10:58 pm »

But understand that an EQ on your main outputs or inserts is not a tone control for one instrument, because everything is going through it.  If you need more tone control than is provided on the board EQ, first try improving it at the source.  Then mic placement.  If that fails (and it shouldn't) you can add an EQ on the channel insert that will affect only that input.

Lee, out of context it looks like I wasn't communicating what I intended.  I suggested this as an exercise to learn the audio spectrum and the effect of removing that frequency.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2014, 12:08:27 am »

Lots of good stuff here, so there's not much I can add at the moment. I do mix on an Onyx 1640 regularly though so if you need any specific help with it when it comes in feel free to PM me and we can trade email and/or phone numbers. I think you'll like the 1640; it's definitely a step up from a 1604 in every way. I do agree though that digital is much nicer. :-)

Have a great weekend,
Tommy
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Mackie Onyx 1640, JBL MPro 415s, Mackie 808s Mixer Amp, Samson S-Com Dual Comp, Behringer MDX 4600 Quad Comp, TC Electonic m300 Multi-Effects processor, Shure DFR11EQ5,  '09 13 inch MacBook Pro, 1st gen iPad

Lee Douglas

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2014, 12:21:40 pm »

Lee, out of context it looks like I wasn't communicating what I intended.  I suggested this as an exercise to learn the audio spectrum and the effect of removing that frequency.

In re-reading your post I'm not sure it was clear that it was an exercise in context, but in any case, as the poster is by his own admission, new to this, I wanted to be sure that it didn't get taken the wrong way.  It's a mistake that I made myself with my first sound system a (ahem) long time ago, trying to get a better kick drum sound by using the main EQ and mucking up everything else in the process and not understanding why.
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thomas jones

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2014, 01:33:05 pm »

Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
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lindsay Dean

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2014, 02:27:51 pm »

Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?

  If i remember correctly we used sp3's way back when, the horns are very harsh
 (like an air hose mini chainsaw combo)
we solved this pretty well by biamping them and attenuating, they sounded much better than the passive xover ever did.
they actually sounded pretty good w/our subs
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Tom Roche

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2014, 04:31:32 pm »

Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
Whole packages?  Wireless or wired?  Just the buds?

As for buds, I've been happy with the $90 Shure SE215.  I drum, so don't have the need for a wireless system.  These buds fit my ears decently and sound plenty good for my purposes, so for me they are the right tool at a cheap price.  If my band ever goes exclusively with IEMs, then I'll step up to higher quality with custom ear impressions.  Westone, Alien Ears, Ultimate Ears, 1964 Ears, and JH Audio all make quality buds.  There are other brands I can't think of at the moment. 

I can't speak to whole IEM systems, but the one piece of advice that was emphatically stated is to have a quality limiter.  You definitely don't want to damage your ears and you can't always control what other people do. 
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Steve.Oldridge

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 10:41:45 am »

Little off topic but IEMs have been mentioned several times...What are the best IEMs brands so I only do it once?
That's a whole other Pandora's box.. Thomas!  I'm just scratching the surface with this post.

There's 2 parts to IEM's..  how you get the signal to your ears, and what you put in your ears to listen with. As with all music gear, there are the low and upper end sets of equipment and you need to decide on a budget and what works for you.  Keep in mind that there is basically wired vs wireless. Wired, you are connected to the sound source by wire (like headphones) and wireless leaves you free to move about.

Generally speaking, wireless is higher initial expense, but easier to use/maintain. Transmitters packages (includes xmitter, receiver and usually cheap buds) range from lower end Galaxy Systems for $200 to the upper end Shure PSM1000 at $5k.  In my experience, the upper end I have heard/used are the Senn EW300's, but they all come with single driver, universal fit ears.

My band recently bought 4 * PSM200 systems with the E215 single driver buds included. Singer and drummer are fine with them, but both guitars complain that they lose the lead sounds in them when they play. They are both considering custom molds with at least triple-drivers. Here again.. price range is huge..  up to $1200 for base models.. with up to 8+ drivers in each ear.. each type/set with their own sound (EQ) signature.  As an FYI - we all are wireless INBOUND and use Line6 G-series devices.

Me? ..  I already had a Carvin EM900 rack-mount system (used the buds once to test and put them back in the box) and my own custom-mold 1964 Quads (4 drivers per ear) which just pound out the bass (I play bass in this band) and provide plenty of sound stage separation even in mono.  So I'm a happy camper at gigs.

My point being that, quality goes up with price. Each musician needs a device and I recommend they invest in custom molds for the buds. Single drivers work for some. My old Westone UM-1's worked ($150 when I bought them) but I didn't know what I was missing until my 1964 Quad's arrived!

Decide on a budget and go from there...

some info sources:
https://soundforums.net/threads/28-IEM-s-for-dummies-the-poor-and-the-well-off
http://www.thomann.de/gb/onlineexpert_211_1.html
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/iem-setup-thread.1018925/
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10263.0
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Dennis Wiggins

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 11:51:07 am »

I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

About learning the "31" frequency bands...

Do this outside, away from any reflective walls.

1. Borrow a 31 band EQ

2. Insert it just before your power amp. 
Set all EQs on mixer to flat.

3. Connect 1 SP4. Play your favorite test song in mono.

4. Adjust amp for a low, comfortable level.

5. Using Bink's test tones, play each tone in order.

6. Start with 40hz.
The SP4 will have "some" output at 40. 

7. Do not boost 40.
The SP4 will come to life around 50

8. Listen to 50, 60, 63,80, 90 and 100, and adjust the appropriate EQ slider to make the loudness sound the same for all.
In general, you should not have to boost any frequency, but some frequencies will "jump out at you" and will need to be cut. 

9. Continue through to at least 1250hz
I, personally, can't much hear much higher that; but then I'm 65.
I predict that there will be  about 5 1/3 band sliders that will need to be cut to make it all sound the same.
You may have to adjust the power amp to keep the level comfortable. 
If you do,  then you will have to re-compare all of the frequencies. 

10. If you can hear the effect of moving the 16k slider, you get a GOLD STAR!

11. Go back and compare/adjust all of the tones from 40-1250 until the loudness is the same to you. Do this at least 3 times.  Play your  favorite test song again.  Crank it up. 
You should notice the improvement.

-Dennis

Bink's test tones link:  http://www.binkster.net/extras.shtml
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 11:56:56 am by Dennis Wiggins »
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