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Author Topic: Looking at things a different way...  (Read 1769 times)

Tomm Williams

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2014, 01:41:29 pm »

You can achieve a great deal of feedback control by learning about speaker placement relative to microphone pick up pattern. Just moving a few things around on stage can tame (or create) problems. Processing like reverb or compression can also add issues if not done properly. Don't overlook microphone selection also as some mics have less GBF than others. Really a lot you can do without spending any money, just learning how to run the system.
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Ed Silva

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2014, 01:49:45 pm »

All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2014, 02:59:17 pm »

All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
Think of comps and limiters and gates (oh my!) as condiments or seasoning.  If you don't know how to cook the meal the spices don't matter.
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Chris Hindle

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 03:42:41 pm »

All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.
Squashed and limited does NOT equal quality.
Mic -> Mixer -> Amp -> Speaker  will allways give the best quality. Anything you add to the signal chain takes away from that.
These are tool to solve a particular set of problems.
If you don't have these problems, and don't need these tools, the quality will be better.
2 really important things to grok.
1) Loudest thing at the mic wins. Choose you mic and location wisely.
2) Point the speakers where the people are.
Get these 2 right, and many "tools" are not needed.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 03:45:02 pm by Chris Hindle »
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Ya, Whatever. Just throw a '57 on it, and get off my stage.

duane massey

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2014, 12:27:25 am »

More info would be good: what do you run thru the system, both FOH and monitors? How many monitor mixes? What type of mics, and for what purpose? What type of music?

There are no "magic" boxes out there. The Driveracks and similar are promoted to be close, but truly don't do much on their own if you don't know how to set them up.
What do you feel is lacking in your sound? If it seems dull, look at your channel EQ settings first before you do anything else. If your EQ settings are odd-looking (all turned full up or down, or all set at 12 o'clock) be very suspicious. If you don't already have them engaged use the lo-cut (or HPF) filters on all vocal channels, as well as anything else that doesn't have much low freq content.
Don't drive anything into clipping. Channels, board outputs, power amps. Check your crossover settings.
+1 on monitor speaker placement, makes a real difference.
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Duane Massey
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2014, 02:01:03 am »

All good stuff here guys! Actually I'm a bit surprised about all the posts related to feedback, yet I'm getting the impression that no one really thinks that comps, limiters, etc. will give me any benefit in sound QUALITY, or at least, with the existing equipment and experience I have right now.

A few other things that may help, some of these I wish I had been told years ago:

1 - Each 3db move of the eq know doubles the power required in that frequency range.  Especially in small form factor (1U) EQ's a little movement is a lot

2 - Play some music through your PA you know at home.  Cut each EQ band all the way to the bottom one at a time.  Listen to the effect it has on the music.  Wait for each instrument in the mix to have a solo so you can hear the impact on different instruments.  Ditto with different vocal ranges

3 - Comp's and limiters are for later I agree.  But gates are for now.  A gate is what it sounds like, when the sound rises above the level set on the gate it opens and lets the sound out.  You can then set how long it stays open and how quick it closes.  Gates on kick mics, acoustic guitars and vocals will keep the mic closed until it is needed, eliminating a source of feedback and cleaning up your mix.

4 - Lower your stage level, IEM's were suggested.  All of them don't have to be wireless.  Getting all that noise off the stage will make setting the gates simpler.

5 - DI your bass guitar

6 - I know you got a deal on the mixer but a Mackie DL-1608 with iPad control has gates and compressors + EQ's on every channel.  It also works well with the IEM's as you can quickly setup each send to the monitor mix.  The musicians can actually control their own via an iPxx app if they want.  The DL-1608 will simplify your signal chain and your life.  I think you will find the graphical interface presentation of the high pass, gates and comps.

7 - Don't be scared to experiment

8 - Did you mention what mics you use?  If so I forgot if you did no need to repost.

Most important have fun.

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Scott AKA Skyking
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Ed Silva

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2014, 04:22:02 am »

The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).
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Steve.Oldridge

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2014, 12:01:30 pm »

The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).
Ed, ugh...   keep it simple. The more you add into your monitor wedges, the more chance for feedback sources.. and instrument volume wars.

Since you are not IEM, only put what you NEED to hear thru the monitors.. in your case.. I'd say vox only - unless the guitar players need to "feel" each others sound, but then, it's likely going to be a CF competing with each other. But definitely NO DRUMS and NO BASS in the monitors. 
If guitar amps are direct/line-out or mic'ed to PA, sit them on the side of the stage (if you can) and point them up-and-back, diagonally across (front to back, away from mics). Lets both of them hear each other, keep stage volumes lower and give you more control of the FOH mix, and KEEP them OUT of the monitor mix.

You appear have enough PA, so let it do it's job. Keep it simple and keep stage volumes low.. you'll sound much better...

PS: my current band just upgrade from a similar Mackie mixer to an X32 Producer and went all IEM's. Each channel has gate, comp, EQ, etc.  No stage wedges to carry, no monitor amps either. Stage is so much cleaner without the wedges, and has more room. Plus, with IEM's you can hear everything.. really helped with the harmonies.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 12:42:31 pm by Steve.Oldridge »
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2014, 02:48:16 pm »

The mics the singers are using are (i believe) audix OM-3. there are a total of 4 mics for this on stage. With the mackie 1604, I had 2 monitor mixes for 4 monitors. on an outdoor show, basically everything (4 vox, 2guitars, bass) goes through monitors, while all that plus drums through FOH (depends on size of outdoor show for how many drum mics I run).

OK, you have hyper cardioid microphones.  There is a spike in the pattern on axis directly behind the microphone.  Your monitors should be placed to the side, not directly behind. 

Look at the freq response and polars and you will see what I mean.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs_12/specs_pdf/OM3.pdf

This mic is greatly "scooped" and has a lot of presence peak. 

Careful monitor placement and EQ will be required.  There is a reason 58s are still so popular.  With a decent quality monitor, just a couple of cuts with the monitor directly behind the mic gets it done, for close to half a century.
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Brian Jojade

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2014, 05:29:31 pm »

The 2 pieces of gear that make the most difference in an audio chain are the microphones and the speakers.  The Peavey speakers you have aren't the greatest in the world, but they are better than many out there.  Should be more than enough for you.

The mics you have are fine, but as doug mentioned, their pattern can create feedback issues with a normal monitor in front of the singer approach.  SM58s are kind of magic in working with very little effort.  They are good, easy to use mics.

As far as the rest of the gear, if you don't know what it does, or don't have a specific solution you're trying to solve, don't use it.  Yeah, it's fun to have a rack full of gear, but if it's not solving a problem, it's a waste of resources.

For a small band, where you're running sound, less is more.  For not a lot of money, you can get a digital board that does EVERYTHING you need.  Mics plug into the mixer.  Mixer plugs into the  amps, amps plug into the speakers.  That's it.  Don't over think it.
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Brian Jojade
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