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Author Topic: Looking at things a different way...  (Read 8882 times)

Ed Silva

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Looking at things a different way...
« on: August 06, 2014, 10:21:34 AM »

Hi guys, new here...

   So I have a 5 piece hobby band. We've been practicing/ playing bars and such for a little over a year. Everyone in the band has a career that is good paying, so this band is strictly for a way to relieve some stress and drink a few beers.
   For a little history, I play guitar, and at the start of this band I already owned a tiny mixer and a pair of mackie th-15's. We played a couple TINY shows with this, then I started building up my gear. I've bought a lot of new and used gear, more because it was in my price range, than because it's the best for me. Right now my gear consists of:
mains:
-Peavey SP118 pair subs
-Peavey SP4 15" tops (older model-bought used)
-peavey isp5000 amp
-peavey cs4000 amp
Main gear:
-Mackie onyx 1640 (ordered but haven't gotten it yet- bought used at a steal-have been using a mackie 1604vlz)
-peavey PV 23XO crossover (free with other crap I bought)
-Alesis microverb (for vocals)
-Behringer 4 channel limiter/gate (have 4 of these, haven't installed in system, since 1: I don't really know how they work, and 2:haven't had the time to play with it, and don't want to throw it in the mix and have problems during a show without getting a chance to practice with it)
Monitors:
-(2) pv2600 amps
-(2) behringer 15" wedges
-(1) peavey 12" wedge
-(1) beat to death Grund 10" monitor

Since our shows are small, or medium size, I think my FOH speakers are sufficient for the size shows we do. We don't make much money from playing, mostly due to the area I live (dive bars and outdoor private parties, etc). I always run the sound myself. I have a wireless guitar rig to run out and see how it sounds throughout the night. I know this is not preferred amongst most guys with experience. I never had any prior experience with PA systems before starting this band.

While a lot of guys try to get the absolute best sounding system that their money can buy, I on the other hand, have to get gear that I can run by myself with no sound guy, but hope to find the best happy medium between quality and hands free, if at all possible.

Is there any gear out there that is a bit more "self sufficient" than others? Although I know nothing about them, I read a little about peavey and dbx making the DSP's that have comp, eq's, etc. built right into them, and somehow can automatically optimize the sound for the speakers being used? Since weight and size is always an issue playing small bars, it sounds like one of these might do a good enough job to not need the other components?

Are there any types of feedback suppresors that work decent without killing the quality? I've never used them, and I've heard that the behringer limiter that I have might do the same thing to and extent, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Like I said, I am brand new at running sound, but I can spare to spend a buck or two to buy something new if need be. There are a lot of bands in my area that have one of the band member running sound while they play, and between having constant feedback issues, or sounding like muddy death coming out of the FOH speaker, I'd say even now we have a lot cleaner sound than them, but it's not always consistent, and with my lack of experience, I'm gonna say it's more luck than anything else.

Sorry for the long very first post, but in every forum that I've read, the next ten replies are "what gear are you using" type of posts. Thanks in advance guys!
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 10:31:10 AM »

Hi guys, new here...

   So I have a 5 piece hobby band. We've been practicing/ playing bars and such for a little over a year. Everyone in the band has a career that is good paying, so this band is strictly for a way to relieve some stress and drink a few beers.
   For a little history, I play guitar, and at the start of this band I already owned a tiny mixer and a pair of mackie th-15's. We played a couple TINY shows with this, then I started building up my gear. I've bought a lot of new and used gear, more because it was in my price range, than because it's the best for me. Right now my gear consists of:
mains:
-Peavey SP118 pair subs
-Peavey SP4 15" tops (older model-bought used)
-peavey isp5000 amp
-peavey cs4000 amp
Main gear:
-Mackie onyx 1640 (ordered but haven't gotten it yet- bought used at a steal-have been using a mackie 1604vlz)
-peavey PV 23XO crossover (free with other crap I bought)
-Alesis microverb (for vocals)
-Behringer 4 channel limiter/gate (have 4 of these, haven't installed in system, since 1: I don't really know how they work, and 2:haven't had the time to play with it, and don't want to throw it in the mix and have problems during a show without getting a chance to practice with it)
Monitors:
-(2) pv2600 amps
-(2) behringer 15" wedges
-(1) peavey 12" wedge
-(1) beat to death Grund 10" monitor

Since our shows are small, or medium size, I think my FOH speakers are sufficient for the size shows we do. We don't make much money from playing, mostly due to the area I live (dive bars and outdoor private parties, etc). I always run the sound myself. I have a wireless guitar rig to run out and see how it sounds throughout the night. I know this is not preferred amongst most guys with experience. I never had any prior experience with PA systems before starting this band.

While a lot of guys try to get the absolute best sounding system that their money can buy, I on the other hand, have to get gear that I can run by myself with no sound guy, but hope to find the best happy medium between quality and hands free, if at all possible.

Is there any gear out there that is a bit more "self sufficient" than others? Although I know nothing about them, I read a little about peavey and dbx making the DSP's that have comp, eq's, etc. built right into them, and somehow can automatically optimize the sound for the speakers being used? Since weight and size is always an issue playing small bars, it sounds like one of these might do a good enough job to not need the other components?

Are there any types of feedback suppresors that work decent without killing the quality? I've never used them, and I've heard that the behringer limiter that I have might do the same thing to and extent, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Like I said, I am brand new at running sound, but I can spare to spend a buck or two to buy something new if need be. There are a lot of bands in my area that have one of the band member running sound while they play, and between having constant feedback issues, or sounding like muddy death coming out of the FOH speaker, I'd say even now we have a lot cleaner sound than them, but it's not always consistent, and with my lack of experience, I'm gonna say it's more luck than anything else.

Sorry for the long very first post, but in every forum that I've read, the next ten replies are "what gear are you using" type of posts. Thanks in advance guys!

Ed,

First off, don't buy a feedback destroyer. If you're having issues with feedback some 31-band EQs are in order.   Feedback destroyers can be useful at helping locate problem frequencies, but in practical use they (especially ones from Behringer) cut too wide of a notch in your sound.  31 band EQs are the best tool for that with your systems. 

Second,

Is there a particular problem you're looking to solve?  If you think your mix is good now, why spend money you don't have to.  Sure you can spend alot of money and get a much better sounding PA but will your audience notice?   If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Rick Scofield

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 11:01:05 AM »

Ed,

Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on things.  I have been in several bands where I played and performed "sound man duties".  It's not easy, but not impossible.

I also went down the road of Gear Acquisition/upgrades from very similar stuff you have listed.

I think (for me at least) the best investments have been in packaging and "infrastructure".  Good cables, good power distribution, good cases and trunks,  all make for a much more professional operation - even if just playing in local dives.

A professionally packaged rig, even if it's used Peavey gear, will make your set up quicker, cleaner, and less troublesome - giving you more time to enjoy performing. 

I've sold off most of the Peavey stuff (still have one PV2600 if you want to make an offer) and gone to mostly powerd mains and wireless IEMs instead of floor monitors.  I've shaved off easily a thousand pounds of amps, racks, cables, and speakers by going with IEMs.

So my suggestion would be to look at any purchase and consider if will either speed up your set up/tear down, save your back by reducing weight, or eliminate several duplicate larger pieces. 

"All-in-one-black-box-fix-your-sound-up-real-good-fetch-your-beer-eliminate-feedback" don't really do any of that stuff perfectly, but a few of the nicer ones (DBX Driverack 260 for example) will do a few good things really well.  But they don't magically replace the role of you as the sound man by doing anything during the show automatically.

You get Bonus points if the band all plays well together at an appropriate volume. 
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Ed Silva

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 11:17:16 AM »

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you're saying. While my sound may be better than a lot of the other bands around here, it still isn't as good as I would like it to be.

I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

As for the rest of the sound, I don't believe it's as crisp and tight as it could be. I read things that make me believe that having limiters, comps, etc, can help cleaning things up a bit, but have no experience using them.

While I'm not afraid of spending a buck or two on the right piece of equipment, the advise from more experienced guys is cheaper and worth a lot more to me in the long run!
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 11:27:31 AM »

EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

Unfortunately not.  You use the graphic equaliser to tame the resonances which are a function of the speaker system and the room so if you set up in a different room, you will most likely need different settings.

The good news is that this is something you set up before you start playing, so if you do it right, it shouldn't need any adjustment during the performance.  You would ideally need a 31 band equaliser for every output you send to amplifiers - so one each for the left and right sends and one for each monitor send.

You can get away with 15 bands but 31 would be better.  Do a Google search for 'ringing out'.  Once you have mastered that, it will all make sense.


Steve.
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Larry Sheehan

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2014, 11:34:00 AM »


I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another.


If you're a guitar player, what helps is to learn the frequency of each string. Then each octave is 1/2 or double the frequency of the string.

Relating frequency to a given string eadgbe can help you to start relating pitch to frequency.

While not 100% dead nuts accurate, you'll be in the ballpark.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2014, 11:34:46 AM »

Get one EQ for each of the monitor channels in use.   Using them on the monitors only will not be a problem for the sound in the audience area. 

DBX drive rack  is a DSP  crossover/EQ/limiter and such.  Used to control FOH with either 2 or 3 way crossovers.  Your small system will still need the individual EQ for the monitors out.  3 or 4 aux sends.  Aux send out to an EQ and then into the amp and monitor speaker. 
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Ed Silva

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2014, 12:03:59 PM »

does the feedback normally happen in the same few frequencies?
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2014, 12:13:47 PM »

does the feedback normally happen in the same few frequencies?

I have found that often there is something around 250Hz then something around 800HZ to 1KHz - However, the real answer to your question is no.  You cannot rely on the same problem frequencies at every venue.  Therefore, you cannot just set your graphics and hope they will work in every venue.


Steve.
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Rick Powell

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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 12:49:18 PM »

I do fight feedback issues at times. I've hesitated on getting a 31 band EQ,mainly because I don't really know anything about different frequencies, and I'd hate to cause one problem while trying to remove another. EQ frequencies such a simple concept that there is some magic setting to keep it at, and only adjust the same one or two bands as needed to get rid of feedback? Like I said, we don't have a sound guy, so I hope to use equipment with very little babysitting involved.

As for the rest of the sound, I don't believe it's as crisp and tight as it could be. I read things that make me believe that having limiters, comps, etc, can help cleaning things up a bit, but have no experience using them.

While I'm not afraid of spending a buck or two on the right piece of equipment, the advise from more experienced guys is cheaper and worth a lot more to me in the long run!

There are two opposite needs staring themselves in the face here, from what I can tell.  One, the desire to improve the quality and control of the sound, and two, the desire to do this as simply and foolproof as possible.  And adding the qualifier that both ends are to be obtained as inexpensively as possible.  This is not an easy ask, balancing all these concerns.

Buying cheap limiters, compressors, gates, EQs, etc. and sticking them in the chain is not necessarily going to make your sound better, and every one introduces 3 potential failure points (the unit itself and the cables going to and from).  I don;t know how many walk up sound gigs I have done where I find a mess of Alesis 3630 comp/gates in the path (possibly the worst piece of outboard ever made excluding the original Behringer "feedback destroyer") and the first thing I do is try to figure out how to get it out of the main mix chain ASAP if it is in there.  To me, simplifying your setup while gaining better control would be putting the least amounts of your instruments thru the PA as possible, learning to use placement of your mics, speakers and stage gear to maximum acoustic advantage, learning your equipment inside out and its limitations, and only then looking at strategically investing in pieces of kit that will actually give you more quality and control.  if you are considering EQ's at all, please go for 31 bands, and shoot for quality like Ashly or the mid-line dbx stuff.

We have two dbx 2231's in our monitor rack and rarely need to adjust more than one or 2 bands if any; of course, our stuff just doesn't feed back much because we use tight pattern mics and very good quality monitors that cut thru the stage volume.  The sliders are basically set at zero and just used to cut if there is a ringing frequency.  After a while of trial and error, and using the philosophy of don't touch it unless there is a problem, we know what bands to try if we hear something.  Also agree with the philosophy of "ringing out the monitors" mentioned above, although our system is so feedback-free that we don't really have the need to do it in most venues.
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Re: Looking at things a different way...
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2014, 12:49:18 PM »


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