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Author Topic: AC connectors  (Read 876 times)

Nate Armstrong

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2014, 12:53:12 pm »

I would just like to be prepared for most  situations that would present its self.
I have no special power needs. I only need 120v Edison. no amp packs. etc .

I currently have a 200 amp distro with Edisons and L14-30R's  it goes to cams and then i also have cams to bare wire.

Quote
The next question is what do you put after the plug?  Your list has a lot of items in it; not all of them can be handled the same way - i.e. what do you plan to do with an L5-30?

for the single pole choices, I would not use a distro at all.
Carol 10/3 Soow to 2 gang edison duplex.   
or maybe just have something like this

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200355825_200355825

 
I am different from most because often times I do not require much power. 3 dedicated 15/20 amp circuits but often times they are not dedicated.
 
If i had a choice between  Edison wall outlets or use  30 amp connector to Edison breakout (single pole)   I rather have the dedicated 30 w/ edison breakout to use. This is not going to be enough power but it gets me closer to my goal.

I already carry  L14-30P 250v stringers.  Each one has  1 "Y" quad box and 1 "X" quad box that gives me 60 amps right there.  Most of the time 60 amps or less is all i need.


If the job requires the distro, often times it is due to the power being provided and not by my power requirements. 
an example is when all power is from a generator. I have the electrician do the tie in.  normally bare wire to lugs, cams, or california connector. 

« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:01:11 pm by Nate Armstrong »
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2014, 12:58:18 pm »

I would just like to be prepared for most  situations that would present its self.

for the single pole choices, I would not use a distro at all.
Carol 10/3 Soow to 2 gang edison duplex.   
or maybe just have something like this

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200355825_200355825

 
I am different from most because often times I do not require much power. 3 dedicated 15/20 amp circuits but often times they are not dedicated.
 
If i had a choice between  Edison wall outlets or use  30 amp connector to Edison breakout (single pole)   I rather have the dedicated 30 w/ edison breakout to use. This is not going to be enough power but it gets me closer to my goal.

I already carry  L14-30P 250v stringers.  Each one has  1 "Y" quad box and 1 "X" quad box that gives me 60 amps right there.  Most of the time 60 amps or less is all i need.


If the job requires the distro, often times it is due to the power being provided and not by my power requirements. 
an example is when all power is from a generator. I have the electrician do the tie in.  normally bare wire to lugs, cams, or california connector.
I'm not sure how that product can be for sale.  It is explicitly forbidden in the code to have a 30A service feeding Edison receptacles without additional over-current protection. At the very least, I would use a 5-30 -> 14-30 adapter and use your breakout box with OCPD.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2014, 01:04:15 pm »

I would just like to be prepared for most  situations that would present its self.

for the single pole choices, I would not use a distro at all.
Carol 10/3 Soow to 2 gang edison duplex.   
or maybe just have something like this

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200355825_200355825
 
I am different from most because often times I do not require much power. 3 dedicated 15/20 amp circuits but often times they are not dedicated.
 
If i had a choice between  Edison wall outlets or use  30 amp connector to Edison breakout (single pole)   I rather have the dedicated 30 w/ edison breakout to use. This is not going to be enough power but it gets me closer to my goal.

I already carry  L14-30P 250v stringers.  Each one has  1 "Y" quad box and 1 "X" quad box that gives me 60 amps right there.  Most of the time 60 amps or less is all i need.

If the job requires the distro, often times it is due to the power being provided and not by my power requirements. 
an example is when all power is from a generator. I have the electrician do the tie in.  normally bare wire to lugs, cams, or california connector.

Does that Northern Tool product have breakers to split down the 30A feed into 20A service? For that matter, does your stringer breaker the L14-30 down into multiple (I'd want to see 4) 20A breakers or are the hots just feeding directly into standard 20A (I hope not 15A!) receptacles in your quad boxes?  (What TJ said as well. It doesn't MENTION any 20A breakers to make it legal... we cannot assume they're there, but we also cannot assume that they are not. Haha.)

So here's your other thought: Having multiple types of adapters/breakout boxes also means purchasing, carrying and maintaining multiple types of feeder cable. I sometimes use an L14-20 off of one of our small generators, but since I use it so infrequently, instead of having a dedicated L14-20 feeder cable, I just pop the male end onto an L14-30 cable when it's needed. The other end L14-30s into a breakout box with 4-20A circuits... yes, I know I won't actually have 80 amps, but I would rather over engineer something that's not used often then pay for a 100' chunk of 12/4 that only gets used maybe once or twice a year. Plus a special breakout box.

Sursly, the easier you can make your life, and the less connectors and adapters and doodads you need to worry about, the better!

-Ray
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Ray Aberle

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2014, 01:06:24 pm »

I'm not sure how that product can be for sale.  It is explicitly forbidden in the code to have a 30A service feeding Edison receptacles without additional over-current protection. At the very least, I would use a 5-30 -> 14-30 adapter and use your breakout box with OCPD.
And I wouldn't really even feel comfortable using the L5-30 to L14-30 adapter unless it was right next to where I am working... my concern would be that I could pull more then the 30A needed to trip the L5-30 breaker before one of the 20A breakers in my breakout box trips-- personally, I prefer to trip a local breaker that I can find and reset easily, rather then something that would be god-knows-where in a venue. =-P When the power goes out, all I want to do is be able to get it up again asap!

-Ray
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Nate Armstrong

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 01:43:33 pm »

I respect power and safety.   This entire topic can be a sticky situation. but I rather ask and hopefully get the correct answer instead of assume a wrong answer.

So, the only time I feel i would see a L5-30  would be on a small generator.
I have a crappy Champion genny that has 2 circuits. one is a L5-30  I would like some safe way to adapt this to get full potential when my power goes out in my home..
I wont use this dirty power on a gig.  but my associate owns a Honda Eu2000i it also has what I think is the same connector. It could be a L5-20 ... The champion manual says L5-30 but it could be wrong often times manuals are.  I would and have used the Honda Eu on very very small gigs.

as far as my L14 30P 250v  quad boxs. they use hubbell brand 20 amp Edison outlets.. So far I have only used it with my personal distro. it has Double throw 30 amp breakers that feed the L14 30R's
If every venue / generator had L14-30R's with a breaker right there in line.. life would be grand.. but thats not the case.

This is my goal
I would like to find the safest and simplest solution to get 120v power to my items.  I need something that is flexible for the show at hand.

Typical show
Some times its just lighting ( up to 10 mac 250s and  24 Tri LED , 2 martin hazers often times just 4 mac 250s )
Some times its just sound ( 15 qsc kw;s + foh often times just 6 qsc mains and 4/5 montiors )
Some times its a combo of both

When we do full Sound system and full lighting. So far we have used a dedicated Distro.

When I have my distro This is how I like to split up power.
SL PA 20 amps
SR PA 20 amps
Monitros 20 amps
Back line 20 amps
Lighting upstage 20 amps
Downstage wash 20 amps
FOH 20 amps

QSC says in there pamphlet that you can run any 5 Kw speakers from one 15 amp circuit.

now I also do alot of little bar gigs and some times very questionable "venues"

I can do a small bar PA on one or two 20 amp breakers and lights on a third 20 amp breaker.

I need a mutli facet solution for all different type of shows I do.. Hence I want to be prepaird with all the connectors I may need.. Often times just changing a male plug if its a Single Pole receptacle.
As much as i love having my own distro.. I often rather not have to pay for an electrician and or wait for them to arrive which is never on time. 





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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 02:05:30 pm »

I respect power and safety.   This entire topic can be a sticky situation. but I rather ask and hopefully get the correct answer instead of assume a wrong answer.

So, the only time I feel i would see a L5-30  would be on a small generator.
I have a crappy Champion genny that has 2 circuits. one is a L5-30  I would like some safe way to adapt this to get full potential when my power goes out in my home..
I wont use this dirty power on a gig.  but my associate owns a Honda Eu2000i it also has what I think is the same connector. It could be a L5-20 ... The champion manual says L5-30 but it could be wrong often times manuals are.  I would and have used the Honda Eu on very very small gigs.

as far as my L14 30P 250v  quad boxs. they use hubbell brand 20 amp Edison outlets.. So far I have only used it with my personal distro. it has Double throw 30 amp breakers that feed the L14 30R's
If every venue / generator had L14-30R's with a breaker right there in line.. life would be grand.. but thats not the case.

This is my goal
I would like to find the safest and simplest solution to get 120v power to my items.  I need something that is flexible for the show at hand.

Typical show
Some times its just lighting ( up to 10 mac 250s and  24 Tri LED , 2 martin hazers often times just 4 mac 250s )
Some times its just sound ( 15 qsc kw;s + foh often times just 6 qsc mains and 4/5 montiors )
Some times its a combo of both

When we do full Sound system and full lighting. So far we have used a dedicated Distro.

When I have my distro This is how I like to split up power.
SL PA 20 amps
SR PA 20 amps
Monitros 20 amps
Back line 20 amps
Lighting upstage 20 amps
Downstage wash 20 amps
FOH 20 amps

QSC says in there pamphlet that you can run any 5 Kw speakers from one 15 amp circuit.

now I also do alot of little bar gigs and some times very questionable "venues"

I can do a small bar PA on one or two 20 amp breakers and lights on a third 20 amp breaker.

I need a mutli facet solution for all different type of shows I do.. Hence I want to be prepaird with all the connectors I may need.. Often times just changing a male plug if its a Single Pole receptacle.
As much as i love having my own distro.. I often rather not have to pay for an electrician and or wait for them to arrive which is never on time.
The basic rules of branch power distribution are:

- You need to use a 4 wire (HHNG) or 5 wire (HHHNG) service.  It is not acceptable to combine ground and neutral.
- Every time you step down in ampacity, there needs to be appropriate over-current protection.  For example, if you have a 30A service, this either must feed a 30A rated device directly, or you MUST have one or more 20A circuit breakers to step this down to Edison receptacles.
- The OCPD device must be up-stream of the wire to be protected - i.e. if you have your #4 50A cable going from your supply to your distro, this must either be fed by a 50A plug and an appropriate (50A or smaller) upstream breaker, or you need to have your own 50A breaker at the source end of your line, and that fed with either larger cable appropriate for the tie in, or very short tails.
- Unless you are a licensed electrician, the only devices you can attach to are "cord and plug" devices - it is not acceptable to directly tie in to a panel.  Not wanting to pay an electrician is not an acceptable reason for doing dangerous wiring.  I'm not necessarily implying that you are, but many people are tempted to "make the show go on".  You need to be willing to walk away if it isn't safe.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 03:35:22 pm »

So Nate, to address your post:
- your L14-30 stringers MUST have 20A breakers on it to protect the two quad boxes. You cannot run the X hot, for example, into one box-- that means you're getting the potential for 30A pulled through a receptacle rated for 20A, without the upstream breaker tripping!
- The EU2000i only has 20A receptacles on it. The EU3000is (next size up) has both 20A and L5-30, a twist lock 30A/120V connection. So, you can run a length of L5-30 feeder to your stage, and use a breaker box to split that into 2-20A circuits. You still only have a max 30A available.
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Frank Koenig

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 06:08:54 pm »

I'm not sure how that product can be for sale.

It IS from Northern Tool. You know you're a redneck if...

Needless to say no agency approval mark is visible on the packaging.

I'm shocked (so to speak) by the non-UL stuff that I've seen at the Home Despot.

-F
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2014, 06:40:48 pm »

I note that Northern Tool carries a Voltec brand L5-30 to dual L5-20 adapter cord that is claimed to be UL listed. 10/3 AWG...so that part of the puzzle seems right. Mark C.

Edit:  I suppose UL listed does not necessarily mean NEC compliant.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 06:45:06 pm by Mark Cadwallader »
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: AC connectors
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 09:16:47 pm »

The basic rules of branch power distribution are:

- Unless you are a licensed electrician, the only devices you can attach to are "cord and plug" devices - it is not acceptable to directly tie in to a panel.  Not wanting to pay an electrician is not an acceptable reason for doing dangerous wiring.  I'm not necessarily implying that you are, but many people are tempted to "make the show go on".  You need to be willing to walk away if it isn't safe.

I am a licensed electrician-that license doesn't make me any better at doing a safe wiring job than the next guy-but if something goes awry I do carry liability insurance that covers me doing that type of work, plus if "we" wind up in the courtroom there is a certain presumption of qualification to do the job.  That is worth something-same as your vehicle insurance whether you have to file a claim or not.

While there is sometimes seemingly more madness than method in the NEC, there is some method.  One issue with using a 20 amp receptacle with a 30 amp breaker is the fact that most devices/cords etc are designed under the assumption of having a 20 amp OCPD ahead of it.  Unless you deal with industrial or large commercial electrical you rarely deal with the concept of "interrupting capacity"- but there is a protection designed into the code that is taken for granted and not always understood by the end user.

A couple years ago there was a problem with counterfeit Square D breakers on the market.  Some were just a switch inside-no overcurrent protection at all.  They were very good counterfeits-UL marks and all.  As others have mentioned UL labels can be purchased easily.  Is there a good, convenient way to verify listing?
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Steve Swaffer
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