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Author Topic: The high cost of deploying a true line-array  (Read 5192 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2014, 05:13:04 pm »

I realize that DSL cannot make the installing contractors (when it's not a Danley project) meet a certain expectation, but I'll say that a particular arena installation of DSL products left me looking pretty silly when it didn't meet the expectations of non-athletic users of the arena.

Having heard many early DSL products I was very impressed; when those to whom I talked up the products heard the installation they just walked away, not smiling.  Not the fault of Ivan, Tom or Mike, but for all the hype (both from the salesman that sold this install and myself) it does not deliver.

It's a common problem, too many speakers aimed too many places, and some places with permanent seats are not in the coverage of any speaker at all.  Again, not the fault of Danley, but it's fucked up and their name is on it because the designer/installer doesn't badge the speakers or amps.
So what was the issue that they didn't like?

Coverage-SPL capability-sonic quality or something else.

I will say (as with all manufacturers of loudspeakers) there are installs that are just plain wrong and make the product look bad. 

Don't blame the product if it is not used properly.

I talked to somebody today who "inherited" an install and it seems as if the loudspeakers are not aimed properly and causing poor coverage.  A hot spot in the middle of the room and low level/freq response at FOH.

A manufacturer cannot control how the products are used once they get into the hands of the end user.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Steve M Smith

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2014, 05:17:16 pm »

A manufacturer cannot control how the products are used once they get into the hands of the end user.

Sometimes equipment needs extra instructions: http://www.inkace.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/a/danger_fuckwit.jpg


Steve.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2014, 06:53:34 pm »

Sometimes equipment needs extra instructions: http://www.inkace.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/a/danger_fuckwit.jpg


Steve.
Well you just put probably 80-90% of the "audio guys" out of work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #63 on: August 11, 2014, 07:42:39 pm »

I smell lawyers.  Never mind.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 08:23:32 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Peter Morris

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #64 on: August 11, 2014, 07:59:18 pm »

   
Like I said before, we have not focused on live sound in part because of what people ďknowĒ and expect is a tall mountain to climb and a great deal depends on marketing and unfortunately where side by side comparisons and focus on sound quality are not high on the list.   
Good or bad, we are not a marketing based company but follow a physics / form follows function based approach and this may not be compatible given the marketing driven expectations in the live sound market.
 Best,
Tom

Thatís my point, and itís reflected in your range of speakers.
 
If you had focused on live sound I suspect your speaker range and design would be slightly different and more focused on some of the things Iím talking about.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2014, 08:24:00 pm »

Uniformity of coverage and intelligibility of the spoken word, not the kind of "spoken" when a game announcer is yelling into a mic while the band plays.

The design is likely at fault or the installation is not according to the design; either way it was done by the same firm.  I've come to the conclusion that arenas have the same type of voodoo bullshit artists selling audio that too many houses of worship get sucked in by.
What is funny (sad really) is that I know of many customers who have somebody (either a design/build company or consultant) design a system and it does not work well.

So they live with a few years, then they hire THE SAME PEOPLE to redo the system-with the same type components.  I know of cases where the redo is WORSE than the original.

And in one case (no names will be mentioned) the customer is looking to hire the same company and same brand of products A THIRD TIME!!!!!!

I wonder who "does not get it" in this case :(

I am in no way defending the statement I am about to make-but this is exactly what Bose has suffered from.  Bad sound because the wrong product was installed properly.

And Peavey suffers to this day.  Because the products are inexpensive-they are often purchased by people who do not know how to use them

And the result is bad sound-and people blame the product-rather than the misuse of it.

Because (again sadly) in our industry you are often considered an "expert" if you can simply hook it up and make some kind of sound.    It does not have to be good-because you can always blame the gear for that ----------------------------

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.  There are quite a few arenas that are very happy with the coverage/intelligibility etc of the products.  But these were done right.
It is not really that hard.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Tim McCulloch

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2014, 08:39:29 pm »

What is funny (sad really) is that I know of many customers who have somebody (either a design/build company or consultant) design a system and it does not work well.

So they live with a few years, then they hire THE SAME PEOPLE to redo the system-with the same type components.  I know of cases where the redo is WORSE than the original.

And in one case (no names will be mentioned) the customer is looking to hire the same company and same brand of products A THIRD TIME!!!!!!

I wonder who "does not get it" in this case :(

I am in no way defending the statement I am about to make-but this is exactly what Bose has suffered from.  Bad sound because the wrong product was installed properly.

And Peavey suffers to this day.  Because the products are inexpensive-they are often purchased by people who do not know how to use them

And the result is bad sound-and people blame the product-rather than the misuse of it.

Because (again sadly) in our industry you are often considered an "expert" if you can simply hook it up and make some kind of sound.    It does not have to be good-because you can always blame the gear for that ----------------------------

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.  There are quite a few arenas that are very happy with the coverage/intelligibility etc of the products.  But these were done right.
It is not really that hard.

The people that paid for this install are happy with the way it works for athletic events that are loud and noisy.  Some church services are like that, too, so I guess there's something for everybody.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #67 on: August 12, 2014, 01:45:56 am »

Well you just put probably 80-90% of the "audio guys" out of work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I found that last week... and just had to make some stickers!


Steve.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2014, 06:42:49 am »

Thatís my point, and itís reflected in your range of speakers.
 
If you had focused on live sound I suspect your speaker range and design would be slightly different and more focused on some of the things Iím talking about.
What a lot (most?) of people involved in "live sound" don't realize is that for most loudspeaker companies the "install" side of things accounts for around 70% or more of their business.

Yes it is not the "glamor" side of things. And it is "repeatable" business.

Take this for example.  If a manufacturer sells a system to a rental house they make a sale.  THat company may not make another large purchase for years.

But for an install company they do an install.  But to get more work they have to do another install. and another. 

This is really good for the manufacturers because it provides a stream of sales.

I am not saying one is better than the other-but you have to have steady income to stay in business and the install market provides that.

While the install side of the business is the current "focus", there is consideration for the live side.

But you also have to consider that there are different "sides" to the live side.

There are the local clubs,small/mid regional providers and then large scale touring.

The products for these markets vary greatly in size-cost-deployment and so forth.

What "you" consider perfect is not "perfect" for other people.

As usual -one size does not fit all.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Doug Fowler

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2014, 12:30:59 pm »

I believe we are finished here.
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