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Author Topic: The high cost of deploying a true line-array  (Read 29773 times)

Tom Danley

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2014, 09:54:00 PM »

Exactly -- 800 lbs is way too much.

Running a sound company is probably more about logistics than sound.  Companies like L-Acoustics and d&b provide an excellent set of products and logistical solutions.

Danley not so much.

Hi Peter
I am not sure you’re grasping the situation.
 
The J1 has the bass output of a large pile of 2-18 subs or about 6 or 8 lab subs and for some installations, that is what’s needed to cover a medium sized stadium with just one or two boxes.
A J3 is more powerful above the subwoofer range but is smaller and lighter AND array able without a seam.  Here is the first public demo of one (up on the lift, video take by an attendee)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

Here is just ONE J3 and sub covering the playing field (for when they practice), yes it’s still bigger than a single line array box but it would take a pile of line arrays to do even this space and they wouldn’t sound like this .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0xlb17x8hhgekm/20140805120442.mts

Best,
Tom
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Peter Morris

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2014, 11:58:19 PM »

Hi Peter
I am not sure you’re grasping the situation.
 
The J1 has the bass output of a large pile of 2-18 subs or about 6 or 8 lab subs and for some installations, that is what’s needed to cover a medium sized stadium with just one or two boxes.
A J3 is more powerful above the subwoofer range but is smaller and lighter AND array able without a seam.  Here is the first public demo of one (up on the lift, video take by an attendee)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

Here is just ONE J3 and sub covering the playing field (for when they practice), yes it’s still bigger than a single line array box but it would take a pile of line arrays to do even this space and they wouldn’t sound like this .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0xlb17x8hhgekm/20140805120442.mts

Best,
Tom

Sorry Tom,

I do think I grasp the situation – but you guys just keep talking about how loud, how far your boxes through and how much better they perform in the wind compared to a line-array. To me, that’s not too hard to do if you don’t have to really worry about size and weight.

You seem to ignore that some of us have to occasionally manually handle these boxes, sometimes we may need 60 or more degrees of vertical coverage, and the next day using the same equipment; because it’s in the truck and your 500 miles from home, 15 degrees.

Don’t get me wrong, although I have never heard your boxes, I do believe they are excellent, and I do understand your point about what happens when you can get a bunch of drivers to sum without interference and cancelation.  I would love to own some of your J3 and SH94’s, but in terms of logistics I don’t believe they would work for me. Maybe your new boxes will  :) :)
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2014, 12:22:46 AM »

Sorry Tom,

I do think I grasp the situation – but you guys just keep talking about how loud, how far your boxes through and how much better they perform in the wind compared to a line-array. To me, that’s not too hard to do if you don’t have to really worry about size and weight.

You seem to ignore that some of us have to occasionally manually handle these boxes, sometimes we may need 60 or more degrees of vertical coverage, and the next day using the same equipment; because it’s in the truck and your 500 miles from home, 15 degrees.

Don’t get me wrong, although I have never heard your boxes, I do believe they are excellent, and I do understand your point about what happens when you can get a bunch of drivers to sum without interference and cancelation.  I would love to own some of your J3 and SH94’s, but in terms of logistics I don’t believe they would work for me. Maybe your new boxes will  :) :)

Peter makes some great comments Tom.  As a businessman I think you are receiving very valuable feedback on market perception of your products.  If decisions were made solely on technical merit our inventory would look quite a bit different.

Keeping SKU counts down drives revenue up.  While we all love the large jobs that need the long throw and high SPL capability many of us exist day to day in clubs, churches, conventions and other corporate and political functions.  Having our inventory scale, even if it is not optimum simply makes business sense.

As an engineer I love your gear.  I am going to utilize one of your subs when I get my new home theater finished.  No convincing is necessary on the technical merits.  Just business and use cases.

I can only speak for myself, your presence in these forums, the candor of your responses and not taking personal umbrage at any comments is greatly appreciated.  I have personally benefited from your detailed technical responses.

Would love to spend some money with Danley.  I know you aren't going to engineer to a price point but to a market segment makes sense.  Also if you came up with some type of coop type program to place gear in rental inventories of qualified companies you could quickly seed these new products into the market.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2014, 08:20:16 AM »

Sorry Tom,

I do think I grasp the situation – but you guys just keep talking about how loud, how far your boxes through and how much better they perform in the wind compared to a line-array. To me, that’s not too hard to do if you don’t have to really worry about size and weight.

You seem to ignore that some of us have to occasionally manually handle these boxes, sometimes we may need 60 or more degrees of vertical coverage, and the next day using the same equipment; because it’s in the truck and your 500 miles from home, 15 degrees.

Don’t get me wrong, although I have never heard your boxes, I do believe they are excellent, and I do understand your point about what happens when you can get a bunch of drivers to sum without interference and cancelation.  I would love to own some of your J3 and SH94’s, but in terms of logistics I don’t believe they would work for me. Maybe your new boxes will  :) :)
Not to be "argumentative- but lets consider this.

What product wold you recommend that can do a small event one day and then have a 800' throw the next? Just using more boxes?

Also there are quite a few examples of top level boxes that are being replaced by Jericho products because the performance is better.

These systems were already large-had more boxes-cost more and so forth but can not "keep up".  So do you think adding MORE boxes is the solution?

Have you ever experienced a "line array" that does not "blow around in the wind" at 800'?  No matter how many boxes?  The more you add-the bigger that problem gets.  Simply "adding more boxes" is NOT the solution.

Another question-what product do you suggest that can have a true 60 vertical coverage (without seams in the freq response in the seating area) one day and then 15 the next?  No matter how many boxes are used?

Sure you can if you choose to ignore what is really happening and just want to play with a few simple numbers-but that is not what happens in the real world.

There are many things that are "simple" if you choose to ignore the real world.

Just like the thread on Air absorption and processors having "air absorption compensators".  Do people REALLY think these processors can add 40dB or more boost AND their HF drivers not blow up in the process????????????

If they live in the world of "I have no experience in this but "believe" all you have to do is press this button and all problems go away" THEN SURE go ahead.

But when you have to actually make things perform the way the "simple numbers" say it will-it is quite a different story.





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Peter Morris

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2014, 10:23:35 AM »

Not to be "argumentative- but lets consider this.

What product wold you recommend that can do a small event one day and then have a 800' throw the next? Just using more boxes?

Also there are quite a few examples of top level boxes that are being replaced by Jericho products because the performance is better.

These systems were already large-had more boxes-cost more and so forth but can not "keep up".  So do you think adding MORE boxes is the solution?

Have you ever experienced a "line array" that does not "blow around in the wind" at 800'?  No matter how many boxes?  The more you add-the bigger that problem gets.  Simply "adding more boxes" is NOT the solution.

Another question-what product do you suggest that can have a true 60 vertical coverage (without seams in the freq response in the seating area) one day and then 15 the next?  No matter how many boxes are used?

Sure you can if you choose to ignore what is really happening and just want to play with a few simple numbers-but that is not what happens in the real world.

There are many things that are "simple" if you choose to ignore the real world.

Just like the thread on Air absorption and processors having "air absorption compensators".  Do people REALLY think these processors can add 40dB or more boost AND their HF drivers not blow up in the process????????????

If they live in the world of "I have no experience in this but "believe" all you have to do is press this button and all problems go away" THEN SURE go ahead.

But when you have to actually make things perform the way the "simple numbers" say it will-it is quite a different story.

Most people on this site do not want to throw 800ft!  They are doing concerts and festivals to about 200 to 300 feet! At which point I expect they would like the sound to stop to prevent issues with the noise police.  BTW this is where Martin’s MLA works so well.
 
FWIW I own Turbosound Flex Array . They will do from about 100 people (one box in point source mode) to about 10,000. They will easily cover 60 degrees … and yes it’s a compromise and I'm sure there are many other boxes that can do this just as well.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/turbosound_flex_array_from_three_sources_for_final_show_of_recent_ian_brown/

« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 11:59:13 AM by Peter Morris »
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Mike Hedden

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2014, 12:11:21 PM »

Most people on this site do not want to throw 800ft!  They are doing concerts and festivals to about 200 to 300 feet! At which point I expect they would like the sound to stop to prevent issues with the noise police.  BTW this is where Martin’s MLA works so well.
 
FWIW I own Turbosound Flex Array . They will do from about 100 people (one box in point source mode) to about 10,000. They will easily cover 60 degrees … and yes it’s a compromise and I'm sure there are many other boxes that can do this just as well.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/turbosound_flex_array_from_three_sources_for_final_show_of_recent_ian_brown/

This is what the media thought of my last show I did using Flex – a small amateur theatre production.  http://www.thebarefootreview.com.au/menu/theatre/119-2014-adelaide-reviews/987-the-sound-of-music.html they didn’t seem to notice any problems with the coverage.
Peter,
I understand due to locales its not an easy thing to say drop by sometime and we'll let you give a Jericho Horn demo.  You are how ever welcome whenever you're in the area as is anyone on this forum.  That said until that happens you simply won't be able to understand the experience.  Your assertion that anyone can build a product if they just put their mind to it i.e..,multiple drivers within a 1/4 wavelength of each other as well as the adjacent three way or four way bandpasses as well as getting proper broadband horn loading is detached from reality.  Tom's got dozens of aerospace patents as well as acoustic patents and he says the HF combiner in the J4/J5 is the toughest problem he's ever solved. 
To your venue sizes we understand most never encounter the venues we do on a regular basis.  We see that as a huge benefit in product development, i.e., we're doing venues few ever get asked to be in much less design the main system for so if we can get 110dBA at 800' and not liquify the folks directly below the mains, how hard is it for us to achieve that at 300'?. 
You can easily do the venues/gigs you describe with a combination of SH46 products or if you really want elegant and simple an SH96HO/SH64 or two per side . The article you reference is for a 20,000 seat venue which I believe is still larger than most on this site ever encounter.  As the article points out this "small" pa still deploys 20 tops per side and 30 subs.  A lot of gear to our way of thinking and most importantly a venue we could do with a fraction of the equipment but yield much better performance.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 12:14:47 PM by Mike Hedden »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2014, 12:14:14 PM »

Most people on this site do not want to throw 800ft!  They are doing concerts and festivals to about 200 to 300 feet!
There are lots of smaller/lighter boxes that work well also.

But 300' is still QUITE a throw.

Most of the "line array" systems I have seen in applications like that have delay speakers out at about 150'.
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Ivan Beaver
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Tom Danley

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2014, 12:20:50 PM »

Most people on this site do not want to throw 800ft!  They are doing concerts and festivals to about 200 to 300 feet! At which point I expect they would like the sound to stop to prevent issues with the noise police.  BTW this is where Martin’s MLA works so well.
 
FWIW I own Turbosound Flex Array . They will do from about 100 people (one box in point source mode) to about 10,000. They will easily cover 60 degrees … and yes it’s a compromise and I'm sure there are many other boxes that can do this just as well.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/turbosound_flex_array_from_three_sources_for_final_show_of_recent_ian_brown/

Hi Peter
The thread was about “the cost” and while a constant directivity broad band point source approach does reduce the physical size of what’s needed as well as the cost (compared to the large arrays which are the other way to go in a stadium), it was perhaps a mistake to focus on size and sound quality in stadiums here since that is pretty far down in the important list in Live sound.
On the other hand, for these large “rooms”, the ONLY other choices ARE the concert style systems which are markedly inferior in coverage, sound quality and are more expensive, the choice of our approach use has often been as a result of a side by side comparison with them.
         
“To me, that’s not too hard to do if you don’t have to really worry about size and weight.”

It would seem you know some secrets that the manufacturers don’t know or aren’t willing to employ, or you have not heard what the stadium people have heard when they reject or replace that option.

“I would love to own some of your J3 and SH94’s, but in terms of logistics I don’t believe they would work for me.” 

True, unless you were doing sound in a stadium or needed to cover a huge throw with even coverage without delay rings, these would be overkill for 90% of concert use.   
 
The point here was that while we don’t peruse or make products tailored for live sound, when sound quality and directivity is a concern, there is a smaller, simpler, to the threads question, a less expensive way to get better sound than the arrays.   
For a throw of only 200-300 feet like you mention, a pair of smaler boxes or a single sh96ho per side with subs would probably be plenty (like is used in EDM now).  Even that box is heavier than one person can carry by themselves though and very few of our subwoofers can be carried by one person as well.

Hi Scott
“Peter makes some great comments Tom.  As a businessman I think you are receiving very valuable feedback on market perception of your products. “
Perhaps so, especially if we were trying to sell into live sound.   
   
Right now the focus is on large scale and installed sound where the large array system approaches are the norm, which are larger and more impressive looking, heavier, have limited usable throw, have less directivity and are audibly inferior and also (the subject of the thread) more expensive for a given SPL / audience size.     
 
While we do make smaller speakers which are often used in Churches and media rooms, it has been the larger venues like stadiums and arenas where side by side auditions with the other choices are fairly common that have been the growth area for us.   
For example, based on that acoustic performance, this fall we will be in more than half of the 100,000+ seat stadiums in the USA. 
   
Like I said before, we have not focused on live sound in part because of what people “know” and expect is a tall mountain to climb and a great deal depends on marketing and unfortunately where side by side comparisons and focus on sound quality are not high on the list.   
Good or bad, we are not a marketing based company but follow a physics / form follows function based approach and this may not be compatible given the marketing driven expectations in the live sound market.
 Best,
Tom
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #58 on: August 11, 2014, 02:31:41 PM »

While we do make smaller speakers which are often used in Churches and media rooms, it has been the larger venues like stadiums and arenas where side by side auditions with the other choices are fairly common that have been the growth area for us. 
Tom

I realize that DSL cannot make the installing contractors (when it's not a Danley project) meet a certain expectation, but I'll say that a particular arena installation of DSL products left me looking pretty silly when it didn't meet the expectations of non-athletic users of the arena.

Having heard many early DSL products I was very impressed; when those to whom I talked up the products heard the installation they just walked away, not smiling.  Not the fault of Ivan, Tom or Mike, but for all the hype (both from the salesman that sold this install and myself) it does not deliver.

It's a common problem, too many speakers aimed too many places, and some places with permanent seats are not in the coverage of any speaker at all.  Again, not the fault of Danley, but it's fucked up and their name is on it because the designer/installer doesn't badge the speakers or amps.
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Tom Danley

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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2014, 04:23:54 PM »

I realize that DSL cannot make the installing contractors (when it's not a Danley project) meet a certain expectation, but I'll say that a particular arena installation of DSL products left me looking pretty silly when it didn't meet the expectations of non-athletic users of the arena.

Having heard many early DSL products I was very impressed; when those to whom I talked up the products heard the installation they just walked away, not smiling.  Not the fault of Ivan, Tom or Mike, but for all the hype (both from the salesman that sold this install and myself) it does not deliver.

It's a common problem, too many speakers aimed too many places, and some places with permanent seats are not in the coverage of any speaker at all.  Again, not the fault of Danley, but it's fucked up and their name is on it because the designer/installer doesn't badge the speakers or amps.

Hi Tim
Yeah it’s easy to get too focused on the technology (my end of it) and forget that the loudspeakers are only part of the chain and it doesn’t matter how good they are if they aren’t placed or pointed the right way or were the wrong choice for the job. 
Worse even when everything is right, one can still play a crummy mp3 through it.
In one of the recent large jobs, they found they had to go through and re-do about half of the program material because it sounded to bad compared to the other half.   
There are a lot of places for things to go sour and even some professionals are afraid to ask for help or advise even if it's free.
Best,
Tom
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 04:36:49 PM by Tom Danley »
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Re: The high cost of deploying a true line-array
« Reply #59 on: August 11, 2014, 04:23:54 PM »


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