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Author Topic: Reasons against LS9  (Read 2845 times)

Steve Hurt

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2014, 11:22:35 pm »

My 20 cents directed to the OP:
_________


One concern you mentioned was iPad app.

If you need multiple user support with aux lockout

(allows you to let people mix their own IEM's via iPads, but stops them from being able to screw with the FOH mix), The only mixers I'm aware of that currently have this that are in your price range are:

Presonus - Studio Live
Behringer - X32
Mackie DL1608


(I lose gigs in a regular basis to people that have Studio Live's and X-32's)
______________________________

Reliability

Studio Live - They break - Ask 10 people that have owned and used theirs for 2 years and 50% of them will have experienced a failure.  I know a lot of people that hide the fact that their's went down, so it's a hard number to lock down, but you can trust me on this, The failure rate is highere than I feel is acceptable.

Still, I lose gigs to these people because it's really important to a lot of local muso's to mix their IEM's


X-32 - It's a Behringer so I'm not buying - The product has been reliable to the people I've know and there are a ton of them in service, but I will not support a company that built itself through intellectual property theft.  Sorry.  Ethics are important to me.

Mackie DL1608 - Pretty solid surprisingly - I have one for my personal small club rig - It's pretty cool setup - limited feature set - but no knobs and faders  (a feedback blow up is a scary thing)  - It has a killer ipad ap and the iPhone ap is great as well - simple - effective.

Yamaha LS9
Rock solid.
If it breaks, you probably are to blame.

Soundcraft
So far so good.
Early models had issues with the memory card / memory card slot.
Since they got those worked out, the reliability has been good from what I've heard and experienced.

___________________________________________

ALL of them have plastic fader knobs (except the DL1608 which doesn't have faders)

___________________________________________

Other

I owned a LS9-16 for years - Loved that board - made me money and never broke.

Decent iPad ap - only 1 user though -
Reliable as the day is long
Sounds decent - many people say they suck, I think they sound okay.  There are better sounding boards, but the LS9 was released over 10 years ago, so that's no surprise to me.but I contend that if you can't make a good mix on an LS9, that you shouldn't be mixing. 
Feature set is - VERY -  deep.
I loved that board.

I sold it because resale was dropping now that soundcraft and A & H had released reasonably priced alternatives.  Also I wanted 32 inputs w/o external pre's and I wanted a digital snake.  Yamaha has a digi snake but it was crazy expensive and on the LS9-16, it was limited to 16 channels

_________________________

Soundcraft Expression / Performer

I bought the Performer.  If you shop, it costs about 1500 more than the Expression.
For that money, you get:   extra card slot / Scribble strips / VCA's / Full parametric EQ /DMX (limited DMX) It's worth the money for the Performer. 
I do use 4 bands of parametric EQ.  Not using them is a work around.  (It's a doable work around, but I ain't doing it!)    The extra card slot is a big deal also.

The Expression and the Performer both sound great.  In fact, if someone doesn't think they sound good, I would say that person needs medication.

Soundcraft says multi user support is coming to the ipad ap.  Speaking of iPad - Soundcraft just updated the ap and it's about the same level as the Yamaha.  One user - most of what you need.  You can mix on it, but you cant select effects and control the setup menu options. 
_____________________________
X32 - not going to spend time on it.  Fanboy base is large - they'll tell you everything you want to know - just pay attention to the gripes - there aren't many, but they do exist

it does have the best iPad ap going.  And it's miles better, not inches.
__________________________

Ease of use - In order, easy to hard:

Mackie DL1608
Presonus StudioLive
Soundcraft (98% as easy to use as the Presonus, but the deeper feature makes it 2% harder)
X32 - not bad - routing took me a while
Yamaha - darn thing is full of features and it's a Yamaha.  Once you learn to speak Yamaha, it's pretty easy.

_______________________

Routing

Studiolive and Mackie make it simple - Routing is fixed
Soundcraft routing - easiest of the digi boards with route-ability
X32 is okay routing wise
LS9 - learn to speak Yamaha.  (It's easier than the 01V)
________________________________________
If what I did with my money matters

I owned a LS9-16 for years and loved it.  Sold it recently and I bought the Soundcraft Performer 2. 

I would get a Performer if I bought again, maybe a Performer 1.
If they add multiple user support for the iPad app, I will buy another performer.

_____________________________________

If I had your budget,

If multiple user iPad support was not an issue, I'd get a soundcraft.
If I could afford a Performer, I'd get one, but I could be happy on an Expression.

If I had to have multiple iPad support, I might get an X32. 
I'd hate myself every day I owned it for buying one though.
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Chuck Simon

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 11:22:53 am »

Studio Live - They break - Ask 10 people that have owned and used theirs for 2 years and 50% of them will have experienced a failure.  I know a lot of people that hide the fact that their's went down, so it's a hard number to lock down, but you can trust me on this, The failure rate is highere than I feel is acceptable.

Still, I lose gigs to these people because it's really important to a lot of local muso's to mix their IEM's

I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass.  I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding!  People are "hiding" it when they fail???   The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards.  Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience.  There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:27:16 am by Chuck Simon »
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dick rees

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2014, 11:39:09 am »

I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass.  I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding!  People are "hiding" it when they fail???   The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards.  Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience.  There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!

There will never be an end to the discussion regarding the SLive, but there is more than anecdotal evidence of less than serviceable faders.  Check Mike Diacks posts on the number of them he has replaced the entire set.

Of course, when the weakest link ( faders) has been addressed you're left with a more trusyworthy board.  IME, the Presonus desks are truly "entry level" regarding dependability and now that there are more offerings in the price range come out a lot farther down the line of choices compared to 3 years ago.

I also think you'll find that a lot of people are selling them off for Soundcraft, B********** or A&H desks after dipping into the "digi-pool" with Presonus.  I know that even as functional as mine were (love the expanders and SMAART), as  provider for hire I never, ever trusted them enough to go without a back-up desk in the van.  And that sort of defeats the idea of smaller and lighter...
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2014, 11:40:28 am »

I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let that pass.  I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding!  People are "hiding" it when they fail???   The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards.  Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience.  There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!

Just like the X32 fanboys who don't want to mention any problems no matter how small.  There's a lot of "purchase self-validation" among all users and price levels.  I watched a BE service a track ball on the Midas Pro 9 at FOH, when a reboot didn't make the cursor move.

I've got a funky fader on my X32, and the ch. 14 LED meter has 2 bad segments.  It's going back to the Mothership for warranty service this week.

As to the LS/9-  I specified a DM1000 for a local AV shop, they ended up with an LS9.  It's been rock solid and doesn't sound bad to me, either on the recordings or coming out of the PA.  We own an LS9/32, never required service, never experienced any operational issues.

The balance needed for purchasing an LS9 these days is between the commercial longevity of the mixer and the cost of acquisition.  If you can get 5, 6, 7 years out of it you can buy new; if you can get only a couple more years before your needs may change or your market turns away from it, you need to shop carefully and buy used.
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2014, 01:45:33 pm »

I'm sorry you are loosing jobs to people with Studio Live boards, but I can't let your comments pass.  I don't know who those 10 people are you are talking about, but a 50% failure rate? You must be kidding!  People are "hiding" it when they fail???   The Studio Live is at least as reliable as other digital boards.  Mine has been rock solid for almost 3 years now and I would bet there are at least 10 people reading this with the same experience.  There are reasons to make other choices but reliability is NOT one of them!
<edit to ad this>
I mentioned "losing gigs to studio live" to point out how strong it's iPad app is.  Hopefully Soundcraft and A & H will add that feature, because they are behind on that one  <edit>
 
The 50% number is my personal experience.  I did qualify that though.  I said  "Have used it regularly for 2 years" and when I say that, basically, I'm assuming 100 gigs minimum.  Sometimes it takes a while for the failure monkey to show up.

I know 3 guys who have had some sort of failure but publicly testify to the SL's reliability.  I've heard of others who have had failures and later deny it, but I am not close to them so I admit to here-say on those guys.

Every time I talk to a SL owner, I ask "has it ever failed".  A good percentage say yes.  Most of the others look nervous.  They've heard, or aren't telling, or they know they're on borrowed time.  Most, wisely, carry a backup.

I truly believe that if your SL hasn't broken, either:
1) you're one of the lucky 50%, or
2) Wait a few gigs and it will.  Bring a backup.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 02:18:15 pm by Steve Hurt »
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Chuck Simon

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2014, 02:49:49 pm »

So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it?  Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free.  And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.

And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:03:46 pm by Chuck Simon »
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2014, 04:11:36 pm »

So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it?  Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free.  And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.

And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.

I freely admit my estimate is just that, an estimate. 
(W.A.G. method - wild ass guess)

I also believe yours has been trouble free if you say it has.  The majority of them have been.

And I definitely believe that the SL failure rate is MUCH MUCH higher (10 times or more) than the LS9's. 

It truly is comparing apples and oranges.  Yamaha's market demands reliability.  SL's market demands low price even if it's at the cost of reliability.  Yamaha could care less about bar bands and their IEM's, what they seem to care about is church installs and AV vendors.

That said, I too, would like to see real numbers. 
I think you would be surprised (just my opinion!)
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John Roll

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2014, 04:38:29 pm »

Quote
You would soon appreciate the 16 outputs and expansion capability, keeping in mind the board supports 66 channels to mix out of the box. As for features, the Expression has features other boards don't, and vice versa.
Bob,
How does the board do this out of the box? I am thinking of upgrading from my SL1642 and am considering the SC-E1. Are you talking about its capability with a stage box? I want to be prepared in the event I have a show which asks for more than 16, even though in the last several years, I  haven't had  the need for more than that.

John
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Steve Hurt

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2014, 04:47:47 pm »

Bob,
How does the board do this out of the box? I am thinking of upgrading from my SL1642 and am considering the SC-E1. Are you talking about its capability with a stage box? I want to be prepared in the event I have a show which asks for more than 16, even though in the last several years, I  haven't had  the need for more than that.

John

If you get the 32 channel stage box, you'll have 32 x 8 at the stage
(and another 8 returns via AES/EBU if your amps will take that protocol (I-Techs will))
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Steve.Oldridge

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2014, 05:11:20 pm »

So somehow Studio Live owners have more failures than other digital boards and are less honest about it?  Still not buying that, but gosh, thank you for "truly believing" me when I say mine has been trouble free.  And how much would you be willing to bet me that mine goes more than a "few gigs" without a failure?(of course as a "fanboy" I would never admit it ::) ) I think if real data was available it would prove your claims to be ridiculous.

And by the way, I also have a Soundcraft Expression3 which I love, but the SL still gets the bulk of my work. As far as a back up, I have always carried a back up board even back in my analog days.

I can't speak for others, and I DID buy my 16.4.2 just before the AI models were announced, so I would hazard that they had the bugs worked out by then. I've had mine for almost 2 yrs and it has not had a single issue even with upgrades and so on.

That said, my analog Mixwiz (still have it as a backup) had to be torn apart and have its faders fixed due to a design issue that shorted them out.. Simple soldering fix.  To be fair A/H and their stateside dealer in CA were more than accommodating in helping with a fix. I did the work myself - with pics and tutelage from them - as I didn't want to be without the console for 6+ weeks if I sent it off.
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