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Author Topic: Reasons against LS9  (Read 16746 times)

Steve O'Connor

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Reasons against LS9
« on: July 17, 2014, 05:49:49 AM »

Hi Folks,

I'll apologize in advance for yet another Digital Mixer question.

If you'd rather not read the long winded post below I'll summarize:

I'm considering a digital mixer in the <€2500 budget 2nd hand bracket,
Must have excellent iPad app Control,
At least 16 Mic ins, 4 Mono outs (+ LR out.) and actual control surface is essential,
Doesn't have to have 16 input faders, I'm fine with layers.
Compact (A&H QU24 would be Max size I'd consider),
No Behringer.
Long Term Proven Reliability +++,
No riders to fulfill,
Multitrack recording and Digital snake not of concern,
DCAs would be nice but never needed them on the 01v96 so not a big deal.
LS9s are currently selling locally 2nd hand for slightly less than stated budget, would I be mad to/(not to) buy one?

Thanks,

For those who would like the long winded version see below:


Currently My most frequent FOH sound gigs are mixing Live sound with less than 16 used channels and Have not yet done a gig that needed more than 4 monitor mixes.
I would like a desk with more than 16 or easily expandable to 24 input channels.
Digital snake isn't of interest to me (Or should I say I am not interested enough to spent extra for one).

Most frequent Gigs could range from Traditional Irish music to full on metal. I do the odd small corporate gigs needing no more than 10 -12 channels.

I also play guitar and mix from stage at least once per week in a 4 piece covers band (4 piece Kit, Bass, Guitar and 3 vocals) but that is currently covered by an 01v96i which I'm very happy with both in sound quality and I've become very fluent with operating it.

I Just recently sold my only other mixer, a 01v96v2 for about as much as I believe that I could have got for it (Had I held out for more money I believe I'd be waiting at least another year or 2 before it would have sold).

I would like to replace this mixer with something that is a step up from it in suitability for My stated purposes.
Budget would be €2500 and would be aiming for 2nd hand items
.

One main strong point that this mixer must have is it's iPad/Tablet mixing functionality.
I Have downloaded and experimented in offline mode with the following apps:

Soundcraft ViSi Remote
Mackie Master Fader
A&H QU-Pad
X32-mix
Yamaha LS9 Stagemix.

Of the 5 I have played around with the 2 that stood out as feeling solid and most responsive were the X32-edit and Ls9 stagemix.
Between those 2 the X32 appears to have full control of every feature of the desk, But the LS9 Stagemix app by far was easiest to navigate around and operate, It had everything I needed for my own workflow and style of mixing.

To Be honest I'm not comfortable with buying anything from Behringer, It's by far the most Full featured piece of Kit but it is what it is IMO.
The Mackie while I've mixed several gigs with a DL1608 and was fine for low channel count mixes but for the price I'd sooner the New SM Pro Audio mixers if I were going down the No Control surface route, The Mackie App wasn't too bad but a little bit sluggish at times, and the desk as a whole is definitely not a step up from the 01v96.


That Leaves:
Soundcraft Expression 1 or 2,
Allen Heath Qu 16 or 24
LS9-16 (+ Adat card and Preamps that I already own to allow expansion to 32 Channels).

All of which are currently available locally 2nd hand for similar prices below my stated budget.


The Soundcraft Expression series:
Downsides: EQ has only 2 bands of fully parametric EQ: For some Rock/Metal gigs it's basically damage control in smaller venues this would be a limiting factor for me. Has anybody experience with this side of the Soundcraft Expression?
I found the iPad app to be very cluttered from an information gathering Point of view.
Not that common this side of the pond.

Pros:Very Flexible routing,
Every on-the-fly parameter (IMO) has a dedicated encoder on the surface.
Fader Glow,
I like how the parameters are tweaked on the iPad app


Allen Heath QU 16 and 24:
Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing, Limited to 4 mono output mixes, and 3 stereo mixes, (QU 24 has additional 2 stereo matrix and 2 stereo group outs).

Pros:Pretty good iPad app.
Multitrack recording direct to USB.
Pretty common here.


Yamaha LS9:
Downsides: Older technology compared to the newer offerings. May still be difficult to sell in 5 years time.
Pro: By Far my favorite iPad App.
It's A very well known piece of gear and proven in the field both in function and reliability.
I'm already familiar with Yamaha's workflow, naming schemes.



Hope I've given enough information and thanks very much for any insight.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 07:07:22 AM »

My choice when at this point became the Soundcraft, which may or may not have as many features as the other boards, depending on what you call a feature. The Expression is certainly the most expandable of the bunch, the quality is very high, and the newly released Ipad app 2.x, which you may not have seen, is IMO equal to or better than the rest.

http://www.soundcraft.com/apps/visi-remote.aspx
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Steve O'Connor

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 07:23:31 AM »

My choice when at this point became the Soundcraft, which may or may not have as many features as the other boards, depending on what you call a feature. The Expression is certainly the most expandable of the bunch, the quality is very high, and the newly released Ipad app 2.x, which you may not have seen, is IMO equal to or better than the rest.

http://www.soundcraft.com/apps/visi-remote.aspx

Thanks Bob,
I agree what I value as a feature and you value as a feature may be very different So I do accept that.
Am I right that it is the Expression that you have?
Do you find the low and high eq bands as shelf only limiting in how you mix in any way? It's no different than most analog desks with 4 band of Eq so I suppose I've been spoiled too long with full parametrics on most digital boards.

That is indeed the newest version of the app that I downloaded.
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Mike Christy

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 07:50:05 AM »

I'll throw this out there...

"Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing"

If you typically do 16 or less channels, why do you need exotic routing? Basically, in live sound, the simpler the better, in->mix->out, l/r, mix1, mix2, mix3... no head scratching when a sig doesn't appear at an output in the heat of battle.

On the 01v96 you HAD to setup routing, flexible yes, but mostly, in my experience for live sound, I had 2 basic global routing, one for basic 12 in, and the other for using an expander with fiber, I had one for a bluegrass band that wanted 7 mixes, but even with the QU you don't have to set it up, its already there.

Dig boards w/o needing to setup exotic routing, well, I see as a benefit now. Although, the QU for example does have lots of routing available, being able to pick off the sig pre and post almost everywhere, add the groups and matrixes, all the mixes, there are plenty of straight forward routing options.

Mike



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Steve O'Connor

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 08:10:10 AM »

Hi Mike,

Very good point,
There have been gigs where I've needed to do some unusual routing that the gig needed, Granted It's a rare occurrence though, I'll still have the 01v96i so that can take care of those gigs if it needed to.
I'm not afraid of the versatility and learning curve that comes with a more complicated internal setup, I'm very much of the thinking that i'd rather be looking at something than looking for it.

Thanks
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2014, 10:27:58 AM »

Thanks Bob,
I agree what I value as a feature and you value as a feature may be very different So I do accept that.
Am I right that it is the Expression that you have?
Do you find the low and high eq bands as shelf only limiting in how you mix in any way? It's no different than most analog desks with 4 band of Eq so I suppose I've been spoiled too long with full parametrics on most digital boards.

That is indeed the newest version of the app that I downloaded.

Yes, I own an Expression. I have not needed or wished for anything more in the 4 band EQ than what's available. As a matter of fact, I was coming off of an APB Pro House when I bought the board. I wanted to move to a small format digital board and after almost 2 years of poking and prodding bought the Expression shortly after it was released. I am anal about tone and didn't want to make the move, had heard the rest of the crowd, then heard the Expression and was amazed at how good it sounded when compared to it's big brothers right up into the Vi line. When I unpacked the board and performed the initial setup all of my concerns were addressed and I was sure I had chosen correctly. My biggest surprise was that the board sounded as good or better than the APB even before I had touched a single knob.

You would soon appreciate the 16 outputs and expansion capability, keeping in mind the board supports 66 channels to mix out of the box. As for features, the Expression has features other boards don't, and vice versa.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Chuck Simon

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2014, 10:42:38 AM »

Bob's right about the new Ipad app for the expression.  Huge improvement!
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Garry Wilson

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2014, 10:46:48 AM »

Hi Folks,

I'll apologize in advance for yet another Digital Mixer question.

If you'd rather not read the long winded post below I'll summarize:

I'm considering a digital mixer in the <€2500 budget 2nd hand bracket,
Must have excellent iPad app Control,
At least 16 Mic ins, 4 Mono outs (+ LR out.) and actual control surface is essential,
Doesn't have to have 16 input faders, I'm fine with layers.
Compact (A&H QU24 would be Max size I'd consider),
No Behringer.
Long Term Proven Reliability +++,
No riders to fulfill,
Multitrack recording and Digital snake not of concern,
DCAs would be nice but never needed them on the 01v96 so not a big deal.
LS9s are currently selling locally 2nd hand for slightly less than stated budget, would I be mad to/(not to) buy one?

Thanks,

For those who would like the long winded version see below:


Currently My most frequent FOH sound gigs are mixing Live sound with less than 16 used channels and Have not yet done a gig that needed more than 4 monitor mixes.
I would like a desk with more than 16 or easily expandable to 24 input channels.
Digital snake isn't of interest to me (Or should I say I am not interested enough to spent extra for one).

Most frequent Gigs could range from Traditional Irish music to full on metal. I do the odd small corporate gigs needing no more than 10 -12 channels.

I also play guitar and mix from stage at least once per week in a 4 piece covers band (4 piece Kit, Bass, Guitar and 3 vocals) but that is currently covered by an 01v96i which I'm very happy with both in sound quality and I've become very fluent with operating it.

I Just recently sold my only other mixer, a 01v96v2 for about as much as I believe that I could have got for it (Had I held out for more money I believe I'd be waiting at least another year or 2 before it would have sold).

I would like to replace this mixer with something that is a step up from it in suitability for My stated purposes.
Budget would be €2500 and would be aiming for 2nd hand items
.

One main strong point that this mixer must have is it's iPad/Tablet mixing functionality.
I Have downloaded and experimented in offline mode with the following apps:

Soundcraft ViSi Remote
Mackie Master Fader
A&H QU-Pad
X32-mix
Yamaha LS9 Stagemix.

Of the 5 I have played around with the 2 that stood out as feeling solid and most responsive were the X32-edit and Ls9 stagemix.
Between those 2 the X32 appears to have full control of every feature of the desk, But the LS9 Stagemix app by far was easiest to navigate around and operate, It had everything I needed for my own workflow and style of mixing.

To Be honest I'm not comfortable with buying anything from Behringer, It's by far the most Full featured piece of Kit but it is what it is IMO.
The Mackie while I've mixed several gigs with a DL1608 and was fine for low channel count mixes but for the price I'd sooner the New SM Pro Audio mixers if I were going down the No Control surface route, The Mackie App wasn't too bad but a little bit sluggish at times, and the desk as a whole is definitely not a step up from the 01v96.


That Leaves:
Soundcraft Expression 1 or 2,
Allen Heath Qu 16 or 24
LS9-16 (+ Adat card and Preamps that I already own to allow expansion to 32 Channels).

All of which are currently available locally 2nd hand for similar prices below my stated budget.


The Soundcraft Expression series:
Downsides: EQ has only 2 bands of fully parametric EQ: For some Rock/Metal gigs it's basically damage control in smaller venues this would be a limiting factor for me. Has anybody experience with this side of the Soundcraft Expression?
I found the iPad app to be very cluttered from an information gathering Point of view.
Not that common this side of the pond.

Pros:Very Flexible routing,
Every on-the-fly parameter (IMO) has a dedicated encoder on the surface.
Fader Glow,
I like how the parameters are tweaked on the iPad app


Allen Heath QU 16 and 24:
Downsides: for me is it is More limited when it comes to internal patching/routing, Limited to 4 mono output mixes, and 3 stereo mixes, (QU 24 has additional 2 stereo matrix and 2 stereo group outs).

Pros:Pretty good iPad app.
Multitrack recording direct to USB.
Pretty common here.


Yamaha LS9:
Downsides: Older technology compared to the newer offerings. May still be difficult to sell in 5 years time.
Pro: By Far my favorite iPad App.
It's A very well known piece of gear and proven in the field both in function and reliability.
I'm already familiar with Yamaha's workflow, naming schemes.



Hope I've given enough information and thanks very much for any insight.


My vote would be for the Expression 1  or  Presonus SL1642. The EQ on the Expression while limited, still does a very good job. I owned all three models of Presonus mixers and love them. However I did sell one, the SL1642 and replaced it with an Expression 2, the aux count on the SL16 was a bit limiting for what I do. I sold my LS9-32 last month,  its workflow was way to dated and expensive by today's standards. Liked the IPAD app on the Presonus and just starting to use the app for the Soundcraft, which I'm okay with too.

I really, really like the Expression. I bought a Stage Box mini-32, now my SC-E2 is easily a 32 channel mixer in a nice footprint. The layout of the Expression is outstanding IMO for its price point.

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Mike Christy

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2014, 11:02:09 AM »

Yes, I own an Expression.

DOH! I finally put 2 and 2 together... Harman owns both Soundcraft AND JBL... LOL make sense now.
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Steve O'Connor

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Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 11:36:44 AM »

Thanks for all the input so far,

I Have used the Presonus desks many times before but not the ipad app, A few things against the Presonus for Me are:
1. It requires Firewire, iPad and iPod are the only apple products I ever want to own.
2. No motorized faders, The fader locate idea is great and all but for me I prefer sends on faders and an instant fader recall.
3. I've A/B'd the 16.0.2 against a 01v96vcm EQ flat, processing and effects off, into a Yamaha dsr112 and the 01v96 did it for me and those present in regards to sound quality.

I believe the newer AI versions don't require it to be connected to a laptop with firewire or a mac to use the iPad app though.


In Regards to the Soundcraft iPad app:
It was the latest version of it that I had downloaded, so if it is a huge improvement over the previous version I dread the thought of the old version. Keep in mind I have only used it in offline mode so there may be display and workflow differences versus online mode but I would have assumed a demo mode would attempt to be more appealing?


Has anybody experience mixing FOH with any of the mentioned iPad apps? I would be most interested to hear from those with experience with LS9 Stagemix and The Soundcraft and the A&H Apps.

Thanks again All.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:42:45 AM by Steve O'Connor »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Reasons against LS9
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 11:36:44 AM »


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