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Author Topic: Go flat or not to go flat.  (Read 8782 times)

Adam Greene

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Go flat or not to go flat.
« on: July 16, 2014, 12:11:59 PM »

Greetings all.  I'm not having specific problems, but I am always looking to gain knowledge and make things better.  Let me tell you about our Church set up and a little on my background.  As I stated in my previous thread I am a 20+ year church sound volunteer.  I've also had my own portable sound system and studio for about that long.  Up until about 3 years ago, I was all analog all the time.  I would "ring out the room" using 31 band GEQ's. 
About the church set up.  Much of this equipment may be almost laughable, but hey, we work with what the church has or can afford.  I have been trying to push for upgrades, but most of the time there are other priorities.  "If it ain't broke..." That will soon change.  Back to the setup:
(2) EV XI-1123-106 in a center cluster.  Tri amped with the highs and mids driven by a Behringer EP 2500. One channel for highs on both cabs and one channel for mids on both cabs.
(2) Mackie S410S subwoofers on the floor on each side of the stage where the cut in for the steps are (about 30' on center).  The lows in the EV's and the subs are driven by a Mackie M4000 amp. 1 channel for the lows and 1 channel for the subs.  The subs are rated at 750 watts RMS each at 8 ohms and 3000 watts peak.  The M4000 is rated at 1300 watts RMS at 4 ohms per channel so I know we are underpowering the subs.  It hasn't been a problem because of the high sensetivity of the subs.  I can push 120 db at 10' and not even come close to clipping the amp.  Not that I ever have it up that loud except during testing.  I'm long winded enough, so I will leave out the monitors for now.  I have to use a Roland SRQ 4015 "vintage" digital equalizer for crossover and delay.  It seems to cut at about 24db per octave based on listening tests and experience with my DBX Driverack 260 I use in my portable rig.  I do not use this at all for eq.  Before the Roland I have inserted a Behringer DSP 1124P feedback suppressor.  I do not use the live feedback suppression on the main mix.  During the set up, I did allow the FS to locate fixed feedback frequencies and then converted them to narrow parametric notch filters.  One channel is on the mono main mix (center cluster) and the other is on pastor's AT wireless with countryman headset.  Of which I use 2 bands as live feedback suppression because he walks all around the auditorium during service.  I believe I have a pretty good balance as the mic sounds loud and clear and very rarely does one of the live filter kick in.  After the Roland, I have each of the Frequency bands running into Behringer mdx compressors, which I use only for limiting and believe it or not - take the loud hiss out of the chain produced by the Roland.  The sound boards are 2 Behringer 24 - 8 bus mixers linked together.  Been installed for at least 15 years - way before I got there.  I know I am long winded (missed my calling), so I will stop and fill in details if asked.  The room is very wide and shallow - roughly 200' X 65'.  My questions are first.  Will the sound benefit from trying for a flat eq curve.  I did RTA the room but have since changed it.  I may be doing it wrong, but a flat curve seems to suck all the low end out of the system.  I have gotten where I don't even have the subs on when looking at an RTA with pink noise.  My second question is: what would you upgrade first, second, third etc.  The church is doing much better financially now and funds will soon be available to begin upgrading.  Thanks very much for all your time.     
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Jeff Carter

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 09:26:39 PM »

My questions are first.  Will the sound benefit from trying for a flat eq curve.  I did RTA the room but have since changed it.  I may be doing it wrong, but a flat curve seems to suck all the low end out of the system.  I have gotten where I don't even have the subs on when looking at an RTA with pink noise. 

It's pretty common for PA systems to be tuned to to have some extra boost below 100 Hz or so (commonly called a "haystack" due to its appearance on an amplitude vs frequency plot). I wouldn't overdo it, though, especially in a system with subwoofers crossed over from mains--no sense in tuning the system so your kick drum channel EQ is flat if that means you need to dump a whole lot of low-frequency out of everything else on the stage.

My second question is: what would you upgrade first, second, third etc.  The church is doing much better financially now and funds will soon be available to begin upgrading.  Thanks very much for all your time.   

Could you be more specific about what exactly (speaker coverage, sound quality, reliability, etc) you're hoping to improve with the upgrade? If your leadership is happy with the PA situation at the moment it's probably going to be low priority for them, available money or no.

Especially where new PA speakers are involved I would strongly recommend hiring a qualified integrator to ensure you get the right speakers for your room, and they stay exactly where they're installed.
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Chris Penny

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 02:46:21 AM »

My general methodology, albeit with limited experience, for system tuning is to first make it relatively flat to get a baseline, and then adjust that to taste.  Depending on what equipment available this may be done with different units (e.g. Make system relatively flat with systems processors, and the adjust to taste with a separate graphic EQ)

For any upgrade plan the first step is to work out what you want the system to do.  This will require input from not only yourself but others in your church leadership structure. Once you know what you want you can better talk to integrators etc about what you want/need.

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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2014, 05:47:56 AM »

My general methodology, albeit with limited experience, for system tuning is to first make it relatively flat to get a baseline, and then adjust that to taste.  Depending on what equipment available this may be done with different units (e.g. Make system relatively flat with systems processors, and the adjust to taste with a separate graphic EQ)

For any upgrade plan the first step is to work out what you want the system to do.  This will require input from not only yourself but others in your church leadership structure. Once you know what you want you can better talk to integrators etc about what you want/need.

When tuning the speaker system my goal is to tune so that what us going into the system is being reproduced at the listening position(s).  I do this because it is important that the system be accurate, this does not necessarily translate into a flat RTA reading.  You need to use a multi channel measurement tool that allows you to time align your input signals (source as reference vs. mic input of measured speaker). 
The next step would be to give the system the sound/curve that I want for that particular room, musical style, audience, etc.  This step should bring the system to life.  The baseline curve that sounds good for different musical styles can vary greatly from style to style.


Lee
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Adam Greene

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2014, 06:07:23 AM »

Jeff that is a good point on the lows.  From what I have read, The human ear is less sensitive in the LF and HF and more sensitive in the mid range.  I guess that is why I did the smiley face eq curve on my fist HI FI component stereo back in 1980.  I do like a lot of low end in general.  As long as it is clean.  The XI speakers were just installed by me about 3 months ago.  They are old for speakers, but in extremely good shape.  They replaced 2 Peavey bi amp medium throw cabs that wouldn't cover. So much so, that the church bought and installed the subs we are using now along with the matching tops (Mackie S408) as side fills.  Once the XI's were installed, we quickly realized that the side fills would no longer be needed.   I found these XI speakers on ebay about 2 years ago.  They have been in conditioned storage waiting for leadership to decide if we were going to move the sanctuary to the life center and build a new sanctuary.  The decision was finally made to put work into our existing building.  Ideally we would have installed 3, but I have not been able to find another one of that exact model.  They are 100 horizontal by 60 degree vertical dispersion.  After 2 tweaks to the angle, they do a really good job of covering our extremely wide sanctuary.  I would love to say we could afford to replace the sound boards first with a state of the art digital console.  Then it could replace the rack gear also.  However, reality is they will not be willing to spend that kind of money unless something breaks.  I don't want to spend a ton of money on a system processor for that reason.  I want to be able to get a digital board in the not to distant future.  I guess the most immediate need is DSP.  I am familiar with the DBX driverack line, but maybe their is a better value out there.  While the system really does sound good, I know it could be so much better.  I believe that hiring a consultant or install contractor would be the right move, but they would definetly have to be from out of town.  The largest install providers in town are the ones that sold them the Peaveys in the first place.  Along with Peavey subcompact 15's!!!???  Horrible.  I'm not knocking Peavey, they do make some good gear - especially amps and power amplifiers, but that just wasn't the right gear for this auditorium.  When I first got to the church, the subs were installed in a small balcony at the back of the sanctuary that has the lighting control console and a camera station.  WOW.  Anyway, the extra money for a professional is just not in the cards right now. I know that many of the people that frequent this forum are full time professionals.  But the reality is, in small churches, they depend on guys like me.  After all, its a vital ministry.     
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Matt Edmonds

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 05:06:27 AM »

Not sure what your budget is, but the behringer x32 seems to be a great digital mixer for the price. Our church bought an iLive rig not long before it was released. Along with A&H's more affordable digital mixers. Had I known about these other options I would have considered suggesting them instead. Not that I have any problems with the iLive. It has been fantastic. I think I could have gotten similar results while saving the church some money though. Which we could used to replace our 20+ year old FOH speakers.
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Adam Greene

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 12:37:57 PM »

Yes I agree.  It has been fashionable to bash Behringer gear for as long as I've been reading reviews and forums.  I think the X32 has changed some minds.  I wonder when they will discontinue it?  Seems like the best gear they've made over the last few years (V-Verb Pro comes to mind) soon is discontinued.  May be a matter of profit margin or lawsuits by other manufactures.   Most people can't see paying anything but bargain prices if the name is Behringer - no matter how good it is.  That is why the X32 is typically 1/2 price or less of similar units by other manufactures.  Something is only worth what people will pay for it.   
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Matt Edmonds

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 08:59:17 PM »

And back to the subject of the thread. It depends on what you consider flat. Some use white noise as a guide, others use pink. You obviously don't want any huge peaks, but dips can be less problematic as we don't notice those as much as we do something boosted.

And I'm not sure where you're located, and if it's okay to recommend companies, but I have found a company that's relatively local (100 miles or so) that specializes in house if worship sound. And are very willing to travel. They understand the importance of good sound for churches and the financial issues also. So I bet with a little looking around you could find someone that will come look at your church and help with system set up.
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Don Sullivan

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 12:37:15 PM »

Two reasons to "go-flat" 1. so the system does not color or alter what you are amplifying. This is less important in reinforcement than in studios. 2. To maximize gain before feedback. I would invest in a good system controller such as a drive rack or even better, BiAmp Nexia or Audia. Get a pro contracting company to investigate your system and suggest upgrades to speakers and placement, including delay speakers if needed. (Not a big fan of center clusters unless you have very high ceilings.) Have them Flatten the system with the system controller DSP/EQ, then EQ the music or program material to your taste. Certainly invest in an X32 - I've had one for two years w/o trouble and it gives you a LOT of useful tools such as gating and compression on every input, 4 band parametric EQ on inputs, 6 band on outputs, built in effects and 31 band graphics you can patch everywhere, RTA on the EQ screen, Tablet remote control. Most importantly you can setup which instruments go to your subs, and you can have a separate output level for your subs which you can boost for youth events and reduce for the blue-hairs. You can lose the feedback destroyers and external processors you get hiss form now, or if you must, patch one into the pastor mic channel flow. You know you want one ... go ahead .. pull the plug. :)
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 01:29:54 PM »

It has been fashionable to bash Behringer gear for as long as I've been reading reviews and forums.  I think the X32 has changed some minds.

Not all of them though.  Many people who have never used one will tell you how bad it is.

Probably the same people who would have told you how great it was if it had a Midas logo on it.


Steve.
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Re: Go flat or not to go flat.
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 01:29:54 PM »


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