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Author Topic: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary  (Read 1214 times)

Nate Lewis

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Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« on: July 15, 2014, 11:48:46 am »

We are in need of an A/V upgrade. We had a lighting strike bring down one phase of our three phase system. This happened to be the phase that our Audio System was on. We are having some unexplainable happens with our current audio system and our insurance has been gracious enough to pay for a entire replacement system. I need everything as nothing can be trusted to preform properly from the old system.

What I am looking for recommendations for is main speaker options. I have done some testing in EASE Focus and looked at a couple of different systems. One of my contacts is pushing toward the NEXO PS15-R2 2-way speakers. I have not run an EASE Focus sim on these as they don't have a Focus file that I can find.

One of the contractors we have pinged for a quote is recommending a DAS array but I don't have his quote in hand so I am not entirely sure which one. I suspect it is the Event series as that probably fits our price range.

I have looked at DB Technologies T4. These seem to fit the room okay. I am worried that 2 arrays will be too wide at 100 degrees of spread.

I have attached some pics and a simple layout with dimensions.

Budget is 40K to 50K total. I will have to buy some mics. I have set aside about 8K to flesh out a nice mic locker. I am willing to pull resources to use on speakers if necessary.

Other notes:

We are moving to IEM's for the drummer, bass, and sax. That is three wedges down. There will be six QSC K-8 (2 for pulpit, 1 for each [piano, organ, lead singing podium, guitar]) replacing the 12" and 15" wedges now cutting down on some stage volume. I want to do all of them except the pulpit and the lead singer but we have special situations for the piano and organ (read: lots of guest, most of whom would not wear headphones). The organ will probably run hybrid with my main organ player doing IEMs with the floor wedge signal down and guest using the floor wedge. Piano will probably be the same. Guitar will be floor wedge.

I am looking at mixing options. Right now I am leaning toward the A&H GLD-80/112 depending on budget. If budget is restricted my backup plan is an X32 or M32. To go A&H with digital snakes, dante card, ME-1 personal monitor system will run about 18K. This is probably too much so more than likely I will be going the X32 or M32 route.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 12:36:03 pm »

In looking at the room-I would go with a well behaved center speaker (and maybe some small fills for the seats down front left and right).

Anything else is going to look bad and take away from the look of the room.

When you specified budget-what all does it have to include?  Is there a new console?  What about wireless mics?

What you need to do is to take the total available-subtract out the "knowns" (console wireless-playback etc) and see what is left over.

THAT is what you have to spend on a loudspeaker system and amps/processing etc
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 01:49:41 pm »

Thanks for your reply. As listed in my first post it is a total replacement. With a budget range of 40K - 50K. Mics (including wireless) are 8K. Mixer is 18K for A&H GLD (System Desired) leaving 14K to 24K for Mains and Monitors. Monitors are at 4K (I didn't list this). Which brings us down to 10K to 20K for mains. Now that being said I am willing to realign if I need more budget for mains. I can always add digital snakes, personal monitors, and fluff (extra) mics later. These calculations for mixer and mics are what I want. If I need to cut back on mic cost in order to hang better mains I am open to that.

Gosh, I guess I didn't intend on getting a lecture on budgetary concerns. I have done the necessary calculations to get into a range of products. Things are still very much in the preliminary planning stages. We have a budget goal and I just wanted some recommendations to fit in that range. Main speakers are my main concern. Followed by mixer, then mics, monitors, and such.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 02:10:40 pm »

You aren't getting a lecture, don't construe it that way.  There is no use for anyone to suggest 20k of speakers if you only have 10k left.  Detailing your budget is helpful and something many people haven't thought of beyond the big number.

Does your budget include installation?  Someone has to hang the speakers, and to do it right you will need a structural engineer to provide a stamped drawing (perhaps a congregant is a structural engineer).  If you need amps for your speakers, do you have conduit from the amp location to where you need it?  Is there sufficient power?  All these questions and more matter and factor into the budget.

I agree with Ivan's recommendation for a center cluster.  Perhaps you could contact Danley and ask them to do a model for you and make a reccomendation.

What volume do expect in dB from the system?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 03:20:24 pm »

Forgive me, I am new here. After reading his post it seemed to me he did not read my post in it's entirety. Several questions he mentioned had been answered but possibly not thoroughly enough. But alas all that aside I am here for some of your thoughts.

All labor will be handled professionally. We have several contractors (licensed) and electricians (licensed) in the congregation to help. They will be donating their labor in order to make more room in the budget for equipment. This has already be set in place. I have a structural engineer in the family who will be working up the plans for flying the speakers what ever they may be. I will be taking care of his labor personally. The only cost will be the equipment. I run cabling professionally and will be running any signal cables that may be needed. Conduit is in place.

For ease of use we can go middle ground and say there is 15K of budget room for main speakers.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 07:03:20 pm »

Forgive me, I am new here. After reading his post it seemed to me he did not read my post in it's entirety. Several questions he mentioned had been answered but possibly not thoroughly enough. But alas all that aside I am here for some of your thoughts.


I am not sure what part I missed.  You mentioned a budget and all you talked about were the speakers. 

I did not see any mention about other expenses.

We have people all the time that mention a budget-and when they start to figure things out and costs-there is not as much left as they suspect they had.

Just for example you say you have 15K for speakers.  What about amps-processing-cables (both speaker and flyware etc).

YOU may know what you have in mind-but we (the people reading) do not. THAT is why it has to be spelled out.

Sorry-but details ARE important.

Just for example.  You say you are going to do the labor. How do you plan on lifting the speakers into place and do the rigging?

Do you have scaffolding? or a lift that is being donated?  That can add to the costs.
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Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Nate Lewis

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 12:09:00 pm »

I will just keep this simple. 15k for speakers, processing and amp if passive, and flyware. I have access to scaffolding. The church owns a lift. Wiring is already considered in another part of the budget and we have some bulk on hand.

I didn't post every detail of the budget because quite frankly it is not important to the matter. A public fourm is not the place I would want to post finical matters of a group of individuals operating as a church body. I was asking about mains not about budgeting. A simple question of "does this range include flyware, amps, etc. would have sufficed". I can understand that some people don't know how to manage a project. I do not feel this is the place to get into that.

To be completely honest I am interested to see what mains would fit the room best. Our final budget numbers are not set and they could go up if we decide to to. I just needed some recommendations on speakers that would fit the room.
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dick rees

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 12:24:35 pm »

To be completely honest I am interested to see what mains would fit the room best. Our final budget numbers are not set and they could go up if we decide to to. I just needed some recommendations on speakers that would fit the room.

To be honest, you can't make decisions on such matters on internet forums.

There are too many variables as well as the personal equation of group decision making which require on-site, real-time communication.

As often happens, it would seem your quest is one of validation of an idea, not so much one seeking real information.  Parsing out the requested info and quibbling with requsts to discuss matters relative to the issue really get you nowhere...fast.

To be honest...
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Tom Young

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 12:31:57 pm »

DAS are not in the same quality category as Nexo and I would avoid them.

Nexo may be a good fit. Others I would look to are: Danley Sound Labs, Yamaha Commercial series, Fulcrum Acoustic and d&b Audiotechnik. There are others, but these would provide plenty of options and probably fit your budget.

You have not mentioned subwoofers. While it would seem (to me ) that these would be necessary given the style of music you appear to worship with, finding a good place for them (or maybe only one would be required) is another challenge. Placement is pretty critical but for different reasons than those which occur in placement of the fullrange loudspeakers.

Perhaps the strongest suggestion/warning I can give you is that it matters little what system you go with if you do not have a experienced measurement & optimization specialist on board. The loudspeakers will simply not perform as well as they are designed to without this. Part of this is making sure you have an appropriate DSP device and appropriate power amplifiers in the system.

HTH
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Tom Young
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Recommendation for Installed Sound in Church Sanctuary
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 12:38:41 pm »

I will just keep this simple. 15k for speakers, processing and amp if passive, and flyware. I have access to scaffolding. The church owns a lift. Wiring is already considered in another part of the budget and we have some bulk on hand.

I didn't post every detail of the budget because quite frankly it is not important to the matter. A public fourm is not the place I would want to post finical matters of a group of individuals operating as a church body. I was asking about mains not about budgeting. A simple question of "does this range include flyware, amps, etc. would have sufficed". I can understand that some people don't know how to manage a project. I do not feel this is the place to get into that.

To be completely honest I am interested to see what mains would fit the room best. Our final budget numbers are not set and they could go up if we decide to to. I just needed some recommendations on speakers that would fit the room.
1: You started with a number of 40-50K and now we are down to 15K.

2: You say you "looked" at the different system in EASE focus.

What all did you consider when looking at them?  There is a lot of information available-but very often people only look at a "simple number" and that gives a very bad wrong impression of what the system is actually doing in a given space.

Do you have any of the results you would like to share?  Or evaluate?  Just to double check that things are "right"

I have seen a model by probably the largest most respected manufacturer out there-in a really nice presentation package-but yet the results they showed had the loudspeakers mounted FIFTEEN FEET ABOVE the ceiling of the building.  And the results were not very good even with that height-but we won't go there-----

In doing a good design-you often have to look a bit deeper to get the real answers.

Are you open to other ideas or are they limited to the ones you listed?

I am not trying to be mean-but rather to simply point out things that most people overlook.

In many cases the "particulars" of an install often end up quite higher than expected.  With your original post we had no idea of what was available-who was donating what and so forth.

You have given no idea (that I remember) on the musical style or SPL that you are looking for.

Are you looking for hard pounding kick drum (if so-does the budget include subs as well?) or is this more of a "general sound" with light music?

The size (not the coverage) of the system is very different in those cases.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!
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