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Author Topic: Another line array thread, was "Best bang for the buck" line-array system for 12-15k  (Read 13991 times)

Ray Aberle

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    • Kelcema Audio

Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading  :).

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

... best damn compliment I think I've ever received on here......     
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Kelcema Audio
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Tim McCulloch

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Tim, thanks for the reply and you are head on.  As far as the capital, they are about twice the investment as the trap's over the tops KWA series.  Still, I would rather do this than step up to SRX that isn't going to fit my model.

The QSC are powered, have great software and support.  They make sense for where we are.

I have been handing business over any time we stepped in the Vertec area so that will come back in house.  I also have the luxury of time to let the business gestate.  This type of organic growth is not overnight.  I can't imagine being under the pressure to learn the gear, push it right to it's limits and make the payment/payroll.

I really appreciate the considered comments.  You guys see the number of views you get, this advice will help so many in this spot.  I lurked for 10 years without a login. 

On that note I am glad I joined because I also think I have something to give back at this point to the forums.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

Thanks, Scott.  You've got a much better grip on things than we typically see here.

The gear and techniques we have available today are so much better than what we had when I started... it's a great time to be in audio. :)
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

TonyWilliams

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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.

In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.

(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )


- Tony Williams
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Tony Williams
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Ray Aberle

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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.

- Tony Williams
Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.

In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.
I'm on both sides of the fence- I like how it sounds (to my admittedly still not that well trained ear), I understand and respect its features (and limitations!) - and my boxes are paid for, and continue to make me money.

(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )

- Tony Williams
I am glad, of course, that I now have enough of an inventory that I can use the Right Tool For The Job, as opposed to making one system fit multiple scenarios. That's why, on the front page of my website, I list my three main options- VRX, SRX and VerTec.

-Ray
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Kelcema Audio
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Tim McCulloch

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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.

In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.

(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )


- Tony Williams

Yep.  I think VRX/KLA have their place, and even then there are audibly equivalent products for less total investment.

OTOH, if clients want to repeatedly give me their money for a particular product, we'll buy it.  Having inventory of gear that customers want to have on their events is prudent, even if we don't care for a particular item or model ourselves.

If it's the wrong product from the gig, my job is to make the best possible presentation of the shit sandwich the client is paying for.  Most days I'm SoundGuy, but sometimes I'm "Chef de le merde."
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Bob Leonard

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Having been around for just a while makes it much easier for me to strip off all of the crap and quite often look at sound (Or anything else for that matter) in the most basic of ways This often confuses people who think in terms of complex solutions and allows them to second guess my capabilities. This is an example of the many threads which contains replies from those who I could or would never second guess, and others who are making noise just to be heard.
 
The truth be told 99% of the time I read and just don't post a reply, or I might just post a basic reply, or I might reply with an off hand comment. Now I'm replying to a thread that should never have included 90% of the detail it now includes, none of which give the OP specific answer to his original question, "Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?" and the follow up question by Jason Finnigan.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said that the use, ownership, purchase of a line array/CC array will be predicated by the ability to use same in the venue and for the job being paid for by the customer.

Forget all the math, costs, suspension needs, power needs, expense, schooling and other requirements. All that need be known is that line arrays and CC arrays are designed for a specific purpose and that unless you must meet the requirements of that specific purpose questioning the need for an array to work a crowd of 1-2K people is generally a question asked by people who 1) Don't have a clue. 2) Don't have a clue and want to sound like they do, or 3) Don't have a clue.
 
For those of you still reading and understand be patient while I simplify my response for those who don't have a clue.
Q1: Will a very good EAW, JBL, etc. trap system do the job properly?
A=YES: You don't need a line array.
A=NO: Check your wallet, capabilities, business plan, and future needs.
 
Q: Will a CC array generate more business?
A: NO, a CC array is a tool be to be used in those venues and for those events where that particular tool will work best.
 
Q: If I buy a few JBL, Meyer, V-DOSC cabinets am I capable of providing for larger gigs, am I now "one of the gang", and will my business grow?
A: NO, you're an idiot with a full "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
 
Q: If I own an expandable, flexible, large trap system and have been turning down requests to provide for large indoor and outdoor concerts or events should I consider the purchase of an array based system? I have the business plan and funding in place. I am also willing to take the time to attend training. I also have the manpower and logistics available to support the system properly in my region.
A: You've done well. Run the numbers,  good luck.
 
OP, I've listened to the system you question a few times. I was not impressed and firmly believe a good trap system will do a better job.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Ivan Beaver

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Having been around for just a while makes it much easier for me to strip off all of the crap and quite often look at sound (Or anything else for that matter) in the most basic of ways This often confuses people who think in terms of complex solutions and allows them to second guess my capabilities. This is an example of the many threads which contains replies from those who I could or would never second guess, and others who are making noise just to be heard.
 
The truth be told 99% of the time I read and just don't post a reply, or I might just post a basic reply, or I might reply with an off hand comment. Now I'm replying to a thread that should never have included 90% of the detail it now includes, none of which give the OP specific answer to his original question, "Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?" and the follow up question by Jason Finnigan.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said that the use, ownership, purchase of a line array/CC array will be predicated by the ability to use same in the venue and for the job being paid for by the customer.

Forget all the math, costs, suspension needs, power needs, expense, schooling and other requirements. All that need be known is that line arrays and CC arrays are designed for a specific purpose and that unless you must meet the requirements of that specific purpose questioning the need for an array to work a crowd of 1-2K people is generally a question asked by people who 1) Don't have a clue. 2) Don't have a clue and want to sound like they do, or 3) Don't have a clue.
 
For those of you still reading and understand be patient while I simplify my response for those who don't have a clue.
Q1: Will a very good EAW, JBL, etc. trap system do the job properly?
A=YES: You don't need a line array.
A=NO: Check your wallet, capabilities, business plan, and future needs.
 
Q: Will a CC array generate more business?
A: NO, a CC array is a tool be to be used in those venues and for those events where that particular tool will work best.
 
Q: If I buy a few JBL, Meyer, V-DOSC cabinets am I capable of providing for larger gigs, am I now "one of the gang", and will my business grow?
A: NO, you're an idiot with a full "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
 
Q: If I own an expandable, flexible, large trap system and have been turning down requests to provide for large indoor and outdoor concerts or events should I consider the purchase of an array based system? I have the business plan and funding in place. I am also willing to take the time to attend training. I also have the manpower and logistics available to support the system properly in my region.
A: You've done well. Run the numbers,  good luck.
 
OP, I've listened to the system you question a few times. I was not impressed and firmly believe a good trap system will do a better job.
Well stated.

I would argue that the LARGE majority of people who want a "line array" can't even give you a good reason why.  Except they want "line array".

As if that term (or type of system) is somehow going to magically make it sound better.  In most cases-unless used properly (and most people don't have a clue how it work-how it should be used-what the limitations are etc) it will sound worse than a decent "point source" system.

They want it because it is "popular" and somehow think that they are all the same.

Probably the same mentality that thinks that if you add a compressor or gate or other "toy" to the system-it will somehow be "better".

NOT unless used properly-which most are not.

Currently line arrays have their place in the market-but I would argue that in probably 99% (give or take just a little) of the cases where they are used-a good point source system would outperform them at a much lower cost.

Before you use ANY tool-you have to be sure to use the RIGHT tool.

A socket set is a good tool.  But in a lot of cases an old fashioned wrench will work better-but not in all cases.

The proper tool for the job-but unfortunately most people don't even know what the job really is :( or what it would take to do it right.

They just want to jump on the "popular" wagon.

Mark my words.   By the end of this decade-you will see less and less line arrays being used and a trend back to good point source systems.  Cheaper-easier to use-sound better and so forth.

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Ivan Beaver
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TonyWilliams

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Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.


Since this is in the lounge, I AssUMe that we are not talking about large touring systems. I know you know that, and I agree that rider requirements at some point come into play. A larger company still needs to purchase a system that does a certain job and go out enough to make money.




- Tony Williams
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Bob Leonard

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There are no line arrays specific to the lounge and therefor nothing can be assumed unless you assume a rider will be required and then find out is not. Make no assumptions, have no fear.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Scott Holtzman

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Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.
I'm on both sides of the fence- I like how it sounds (to my admittedly still not that well trained ear), I understand and respect its features (and limitations!) - and my boxes are paid for, and continue to make me money.
I am glad, of course, that I now have enough of an inventory that I can use the Right Tool For The Job, as opposed to making one system fit multiple scenarios. That's why, on the front page of my website, I list my three main options- VRX, SRX and VerTec.

-Ray

Really like the website Ray, a nice well thought out inventory.  I hope you don't mind if I borrow your fridge in a rack idea.  That is simply a brilliant, "high touch" customer centric idea.  Very fine work all around.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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