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Author Topic: Another line array thread, was "Best bang for the buck" line-array system for 12-15k  (Read 13988 times)

Sean Thomas

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I think you would be best of trying to purchase a used KF650 rig.... Quite a few good deals on the market for such kit. And it is good kit with the right processing!

Q:  I need a NEW RED MINIVAN for my family of 6.  My wife loves RED and my kids all want a NEW RED MINIVAN. Any suggestions?
A:  You should buy a 1990 BLACK 2 seater TRUCK!

Why why why?


FYI - this thread has over 10,000 views because of Google searches on "buying a line-array".  So it will probably be around for a while.
Almost all of these threads end with a suggestion to NOT buy a line-array, but a 15 year old used KF system.

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Tim McCulloch

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Q:  I need a NEW RED MINIVAN for my family of 6.  My wife loves RED and my kids all want a NEW RED MINIVAN. Any suggestions?
A:  You should buy a 1990 BLACK 2 seater TRUCK!

Why why why?


FYI - this thread has over 10,000 views because of Google searches on "buying a line-array".  So it will probably be around for a while.
Almost all of these threads end with a suggestion to NOT buy a line-array, but a 15 year old used KF system.

Yes, because in most of these situations the "line array" under consideration is a line in physical presentation only.  With prospective purchasers who don't know or care about the differences between TVI or worse shit and a "real" line array, they and their customers will be better served with a conventional speaker system.

Tim Mc, certified curmudgeon, 30+ years of real world audio experience.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Sean Thomas

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1 - prospective purchasers who don't know or care about the differences between TVI or worse shit and a "real" line array
2 - they and their customers will be better served with a conventional speaker system.

Tim Mc

These are both assumptions, correct?

You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".

You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.

I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.

I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions.  I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.

Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop.  Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........




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g'bye, Dick Rees

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These are both assumptions, correct?

You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".

You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.

I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.

I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions.  I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.

Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop.  Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........

I made an exception and opened this post to see your reply to a top pro.

Oh, well...back to the iggy list for you.

BTW, this is a 3 year old thread.
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Tim McCulloch

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These are both assumptions, correct?

You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".

You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.

I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.

I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions.  I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.

Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop.  Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........

Yeah, I know there is this Freudian Phallic Infatuation with line arrays.  We own a couple or so ourselves.  The reasons they are popular on tours is because you can put a metric shit-tonne of SPL in a pretty small amount of truck space.  Tour accountants like that.  Many of them can sound very good in the hands of an experienced system engineer, a few can be stunning but at a price tag that would add a couple of places to the left of the decimal point, then X2.

I hear a lot of speaker systems.  I hear fewer conventional "point source" systems mis-deployed than I hear line arrays mis-deployed.  The reasons?  Line arrays are easier to screw up.  Attention to detail is critical and for most small system owners in the lounge, having to fly or hang a line array is a deal-breaker.  Having to buy enough boxes to make a 6 ft. line is a monetary deal breaker, unless they buy cheap shit that has no aiming/prediction software (and then they're flying blind).

Neither you nor anyone else is tasked with following my advice, frankly I don't care if you personally piss away your own funds, but after 3 decades + in the biz and having started EXACTLY like many of the Loungers (actually you guys have it better today) I can offer this advice: make good sound and offer quality service.  Both are easier to do with point source speaker systems at this level.

Now I will join Mr. Rees in sending you to the ignore list.
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Scott Holtzman

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Yeah, I know there is this Freudian Phallic Infatuation with line arrays.  We own a couple or so ourselves.  The reasons they are popular on tours is because you can put a metric shit-tonne of SPL in a pretty small amount of truck space.  Tour accountants like that.  Many of them can sound very good in the hands of an experienced system engineer, a few can be stunning but at a price tag that would add a couple of places to the left of the decimal point, then X2.

I hear a lot of speaker systems.  I hear fewer conventional "point source" systems mis-deployed than I hear line arrays mis-deployed.  The reasons?  Line arrays are easier to screw up.  Attention to detail is critical and for most small system owners in the lounge, having to fly or hang a line array is a deal-breaker.  Having to buy enough boxes to make a 6 ft. line is a monetary deal breaker, unless they buy cheap shit that has no aiming/prediction software (and then they're flying blind).

Neither you nor anyone else is tasked with following my advice, frankly I don't care if you personally piss away your own funds, but after 3 decades + in the biz and having started EXACTLY like many of the Loungers (actually you guys have it better today) I can offer this advice: make good sound and offer quality service.  Both are easier to do with point source speaker systems at this level.

Now I will join Mr. Rees in sending you to the ignore list.

I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong.  Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.

There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories.  We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).

Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's.  Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems  when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs.  The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales.  My businessman brain loves that.

What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.

Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.

However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.

Thanks...Scott
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Ray Aberle

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I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong.  Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.

There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories.  We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
Well since this IS in the lounge... lol. And please, really, don't be afraid to ask questions. Sure, the "search" function will help narrow things for you, and potentially address a general question/answer set, but everyone's situation is always different, so if you have particulars that might be relevant, then sure, start a new thread (or jump on one like this) and see what the group wisdom comes up with!

The first thing to do is clarify on the nomenclature--
Line Array: A speaker system that allows for very specific pattern control, based on the length of the line, and the angles between boxes. Designed to allow you to "shape" the sound for the room/coverage area, producing even SPL (whether it be high SPL, or lower) through out the area. Typically designed with a minimum of 6 identical boxes per hang.
Constant Curvature Array, aka Baby Line Array: This is what the QSC KLA and the JBL VRX9XX series falls into. (I'll be referencing the VRX more, since I am a Harman house, and use those extensively.) Each box has a set degrees of coverage; 15° for the VRX and 18° for the QSC. Which means when you put, say, 4 boxes together, you have a vertical coverage of (box ° times # of boxes) -- 60° for VRX and 72° for QSC. (Notice what QSC did there? By increasing each box coverage by 3° you end up needing only 5 to cover 90° instead of 6 boxes of VRX!)

Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's.  Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems  when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs.  The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales.  My businessman brain loves that.

Your QSC rep is correct. (Although I might get the same number of subs as tops.) Being able to have two smaller rigs and couple them together when needed is an awesome ability. 2 VRX932LAP/918SP per side is my bread-and-butter "small festival" rig right now, and with a pair of ST180 lifts I can fly 3/side for slightly larger events if needed. Or if I need to do lighting-- being able to lift the lighting up into the air along with the PA is really helpful.

What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.

Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.

The problem with deployment of line arrays is that they have to be done correctly. JBL, for example, has their Line Array Calculator. When used, and you punch all of the room's data into it, number of boxes, heights involved, it tells you how to arrange the inter-box angles to make the rig sound the best that it can. JBL has done all of the work for you! But there are many small-to-medium sized outfits (and probably more then a few large ones) that do not take the time and effort to follow the steps outlined by JBL (and other manufacturers) as to how to best deploy their speakers! This results in a shitty sounding rig, and artists putting "No VerTec" or whatever on their rider. This also led to JBL locking down the presets for VerTec, and you can't change the processing. "I'm A Sound Genius" system ops no longer could go futz with the settings!

The Constant Curvature arrays are a bit easier to deal with, but you still have to use some common sense in their deployment. Again, not knowing what QSC has for this, but JBL has prediction software for the VRX as well. Put in your room dimensions, where the speakers are, how many you're using, and you can get a good map of what sound levels you'll have through the room. Bonus points: Providing your client with a printout of this when bidding on an event. This shows that you care enough about the quality of their event that you've already done that step -- demonstrates how your system will be more successful then others!

I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong.  Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.

There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories.  We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
(snip)
However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.
So where does this put us? The reason a lot of these threads are ending the way that they do is that the OP will give the background of their situation ("I'm a 75K/year grossing business, use JBL SRX for everything, but this ONE event I could use a Bad-Ass-Line-Array for. So I want to buy 4 boxes of VT4889 and fly those, 2/side, so I HAVE A LINE ARRAY!!!!" -- or even better, "I want to get into a Bad-Ass-Line-Array because EVERYONE ELSE HAS ONE AND I CAN HAS A CHEESEBURGER PLEASE?!? - but can only afford 2 boxes right now, so I am going to buy another box every two months until I have 16.") -- and based on the information provided by the OP, it becomes clear that they are not at the point where they should get a line array. The first example here? 2 boxes a side will sound like shit, and that's going to be a super expensive lesson. The other one? You can't do a line array on the Box-A-Month plan and expect success. Then what happens-- the person has a shitty sounding system, and they're not going to be in business long enough to ever complete the purchase. You gotta go full hog at once, and Tim will tell you-- what is it, the Unicorn of Expanding The Business? In order to reach "the next level," take everything you have ever spent, business inception date to present, and plan on spending all of that over again, ALL AT ONCE!

That is why these threads end the way they do- the literally hundreds of years of experience, and hundreds of thousands of shows-- the wisdom of the group recognizes the folly of an OP wanting to get a line array with which to expand, and instead suggests the next logical course of action- buy a nice trap rig (ground stacked) that will be easier to deploy (and make sound good!) and will be rider friendly. KLA? Probably not friendly for a couple thousand people, but KF850s? Sure!

tl;dr: The KLA rig will definitely allow you to step up your game, but it's not a true line array, and if you encounter A-List riders, wouldn't fly for them at all. And you have to consider the gear and labor needed to fly them-- which is qhy your rep is suggesting a couple small Genie lifts. Lots of people around here have the ST20 and ST24s, though, so it might be one of those things of getting a bit more capacity then you need for the moment, so you have them available when you *do* grow your company larger!

Good luck--

Ray
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Tim McCulloch

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I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong.  Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.

There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories.  We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).

Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's.  Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems  when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs.  The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales.  My businessman brain loves that.

What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.

Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.

However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.

Thanks...Scott

Hi Scott-

I had a nice reply started last night while sitting in the s.r. power vault at our downtown arena (see thread about new venue/power in the Classic LAB) but the browser on my tablet locked up and the "copy to clipboard" failed.  Oh well...

Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading  :).

I don't have any hands-on experience with the QSC but have mixed on the VRX.  I think constant curvature arrays do their best work when a venue is more vertical than deep.  If you do tall rooms with short-ish (<90ft) throws I think you'll like a C.C. array because it will require very little fussing and finesse.  It's possible to make the VRX behave a bit more like a line array but that requires a high degree of granularity in the powering and processing... one of those deals where, if you have DSP/amps already, it might make sense but if you don't you'll spend a lot of cash trying to make a C.C. array into something that it's not.

So the real story of C.C. arrays is that they don't really scale up to cover larger audiences unless the audience is 'scaling up', vertically.  JBL says the VRX is suited for audiences of up to 1000 or so (geometry dependent, methinks) and I've heard VRX used for an audience larger than that (2, 2.5x) and while it didn't die trying, it sounded like it was being pushed very very hard (because it was).  The system made it through the show but the band & promoter were not happy with the results.  Not my rig, not my gig (I was a stage hand on that show), but it confirmed to me that JBL was probably right on the mark regarding what the VRX is capable of.

I've been down the road of buying gear and operating it right of the edge of it's life, only to have it fail prematurely because of the stress I put on it.  Depending on genre and SPL expectations you might get a long life from a KLA/VRX type of rig (presuming it's otherwise the right rig for the gig) or you might just make it past the warranty expiration.

Moving on, it's not that you'll be shooting over the heads of the audience or painting the ceiling (common sense *should* tell you to not do that, but we've seen the online pictures of very dubious deployments), but rather that a _prospective purchaser_ should learn to use the coverage/prediction/aiming software for each system under consideration and determine if that system appears to do what they need, or not.  If a system doesn't have either a stand-alone program or EASE Focus® data, you should immediately dismiss the product.  The software/data is an intrinsic part of the system, just like the hanging hardware.

Hanging... yes, you must.  Putting a pair of KLA/VRX on a stand does this- gives you a roughly 100° x 40° box that costs $3600.  Take a good, hard look at what you can buy for that amount - Fulcrum, VUE, JBL Venue Precision, others - and they will sound stunning.  Really.  They won't transform into a C.C. array, but they'll sound better, maybe get louder, and require little more thought in deployment beyond pointing them at the audience... but I digress.  If you do more than 2, they need height and that means lifts of some kind.  How high?  Use the software.  It won't tell you a trim height, but you'll be able to make changes and see the results.  There's a certain amount of 'lather, rinse & repeat' involved until you get a feel for a system, but you can look at what happens if you raise or lower the rig by 4 or 5 feet and change the tilt of the bumper/array frame/hanging bar; these two are interactive and also affect inter-box angles in line arrays...  At any rate, you'll need lifts sufficiently robust to support the load, represented by their manufacturer to be suitable for the circumstances in which you use them.  If you have to support >200lbs lifts get expensive really fast.

There ain't no cheap road to safely done good sound.  There are ways that are less expensive but less means some compromise, somewhere.  It's up to the system owner to decide what audio compromises can be made and still have happy clients; it's also up to the owner to decide how many times to re-spend his investment to achieve similar, lateral results.  From a business standpoint that's a bad thing to do.  For a given capability you hopefully spend only once...  If you're considering KLA to do the same jobs you're already doing, with the thinking that it will scale up and allow you to get new work, the speculation is on the new work; the accountant in me sees you replacing a marketable, working rig with newer gear without an increase in income or decrease in expenses.

Finally, infrastructure... cases, transport, storage & logistics, cabling & cable protection, lifts/hoists/other support, the hopefully inevitable expansion of mics, stands, DIs, electrical distribution... all come with growing a new rig.  I estimate that for every dollar we spent on PA speakers and amps, we spent another $0.35 on infrastructure.  Yeah, we're more industrial scale than most Lounge operators but I suspect that the ratio is pretty close, only "on what it's spent" is different.

Ray's recollection of my "unicorn of growth" is pretty close.  Jay Barracato coined the metric "3dB$"  You can read about it here:  https://soundforums.net/entries/460-The-Next-Level-the-Unicorn-of-the-production-business 

As I mentioned up-thread, I've been in the biz for 30+ years.  It is not necessary for anyone to repeat my mistakes.  8)  Been there, done that, dunno what happened to the shirt... ;)  But the biggest challenge of being in the audio business is making a profit at it...  Take some business classes, specifically general accounting and especially cost accounting.  Accounting and the analysis of your business numbers should be a prime criteria in making business decisions (or you'll find yourself supporting a hobby).  Trust me.  I nearly went broke learning this lesson.  It is not necessary to repeat my mistake... wait, there's an echo in here... here... here......

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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"If you're passing on your way, from Palm Springs to L.A., Give a wave to good ol' Dave, Say hello to progress and goodbye to the Moonlight Motor Inn." - Steve Spurgin, Moonlight Motor Inn

Scott Holtzman

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Well since this IS in the lounge... lol. And please, really, don't be afraid to ask questions. Sure, the "search" function will help narrow things for you, and potentially address a general question/answer set, but everyone's situation is always different, so if you have particulars that might be relevant, then sure, start a new thread (or jump on one like this) and see what the group wisdom comes up with!

The first thing to do is clarify on the nomenclature--
Line Array: A speaker system that allows for very specific pattern control, based on the length of the line, and the angles between boxes. Designed to allow you to "shape" the sound for the room/coverage area, producing even SPL (whether it be high SPL, or lower) through out the area. Typically designed with a minimum of 6 identical boxes per hang.
Constant Curvature Array, aka Baby Line Array: This is what the QSC KLA and the JBL VRX9XX series falls into. (I'll be referencing the VRX more, since I am a Harman house, and use those extensively.) Each box has a set degrees of coverage; 15° for the VRX and 18° for the QSC. Which means when you put, say, 4 boxes together, you have a vertical coverage of (box ° times # of boxes) -- 60° for VRX and 72° for QSC. (Notice what QSC did there? By increasing each box coverage by 3° you end up needing only 5 to cover 90° instead of 6 boxes of VRX!)

Your QSC rep is correct. (Although I might get the same number of subs as tops.) Being able to have two smaller rigs and couple them together when needed is an awesome ability. 2 VRX932LAP/918SP per side is my bread-and-butter "small festival" rig right now, and with a pair of ST180 lifts I can fly 3/side for slightly larger events if needed. Or if I need to do lighting-- being able to lift the lighting up into the air along with the PA is really helpful.

The problem with deployment of line arrays is that they have to be done correctly. JBL, for example, has their Line Array Calculator. When used, and you punch all of the room's data into it, number of boxes, heights involved, it tells you how to arrange the inter-box angles to make the rig sound the best that it can. JBL has done all of the work for you! But there are many small-to-medium sized outfits (and probably more then a few large ones) that do not take the time and effort to follow the steps outlined by JBL (and other manufacturers) as to how to best deploy their speakers! This results in a shitty sounding rig, and artists putting "No VerTec" or whatever on their rider. This also led to JBL locking down the presets for VerTec, and you can't change the processing. "I'm A Sound Genius" system ops no longer could go futz with the settings!

The Constant Curvature arrays are a bit easier to deal with, but you still have to use some common sense in their deployment. Again, not knowing what QSC has for this, but JBL has prediction software for the VRX as well. Put in your room dimensions, where the speakers are, how many you're using, and you can get a good map of what sound levels you'll have through the room. Bonus points: Providing your client with a printout of this when bidding on an event. This shows that you care enough about the quality of their event that you've already done that step -- demonstrates how your system will be more successful then others!
So where does this put us? The reason a lot of these threads are ending the way that they do is that the OP will give the background of their situation ("I'm a 75K/year grossing business, use JBL SRX for everything, but this ONE event I could use a Bad-Ass-Line-Array for. So I want to buy 4 boxes of VT4889 and fly those, 2/side, so I HAVE A LINE ARRAY!!!!" -- or even better, "I want to get into a Bad-Ass-Line-Array because EVERYONE ELSE HAS ONE AND I CAN HAS A CHEESEBURGER PLEASE?!? - but can only afford 2 boxes right now, so I am going to buy another box every two months until I have 16.") -- and based on the information provided by the OP, it becomes clear that they are not at the point where they should get a line array. The first example here? 2 boxes a side will sound like shit, and that's going to be a super expensive lesson. The other one? You can't do a line array on the Box-A-Month plan and expect success. Then what happens-- the person has a shitty sounding system, and they're not going to be in business long enough to ever complete the purchase. You gotta go full hog at once, and Tim will tell you-- what is it, the Unicorn of Expanding The Business? In order to reach "the next level," take everything you have ever spent, business inception date to present, and plan on spending all of that over again, ALL AT ONCE!

That is why these threads end the way they do- the literally hundreds of years of experience, and hundreds of thousands of shows-- the wisdom of the group recognizes the folly of an OP wanting to get a line array with which to expand, and instead suggests the next logical course of action- buy a nice trap rig (ground stacked) that will be easier to deploy (and make sound good!) and will be rider friendly. KLA? Probably not friendly for a couple thousand people, but KF850s? Sure!

tl;dr: The KLA rig will definitely allow you to step up your game, but it's not a true line array, and if you encounter A-List riders, wouldn't fly for them at all. And you have to consider the gear and labor needed to fly them-- which is qhy your rep is suggesting a couple small Genie lifts. Lots of people around here have the ST20 and ST24s, though, so it might be one of those things of getting a bit more capacity then you need for the moment, so you have them available when you *do* grow your company larger!

Good luck--

Ray

Ray you hit the nail on the head.  This is exactly what I thought I was buying but I have been hearing the expert opinions for years.  The great thing is my other hat is IT, and my IT company had been around many years so capital (smartly spent) is not an issue.  15k is hardly going to cut it.

I planned on getting larger lifts than needed and I might start with 12 boxes, that's another thread.  I never see us doing A-list riders.  That is not what we do.  We would partner with someone to do that.  It's too crowded a space to enter and very capital intensive.  Would much rather pay someone else to do it, still have our name on it and guarantee the outcome.

So back to the line array.  The QSC is simply chosen because our partners have them, interchangeable inventory and staff training.

I also do not need much prodding to buy more sub cabinets and 2/2 makes sense.   even with the threaded poles though I am going to powder coat some rings and put them on the subs so we can lash down the tops neatly.

Thanks again.

 
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Scott Holtzman

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Hi Scott-

I had a nice reply started last night while sitting in the s.r. power vault at our downtown arena (see thread about new venue/power in the Classic LAB) but the browser on my tablet locked up and the "copy to clipboard" failed.  Oh well...

Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading  :).

I don't have any hands-on experience with the QSC but have mixed on the VRX.  I think constant curvature arrays do their best work when a venue is more vertical than deep.  If you do tall rooms with short-ish (<90ft) throws I think you'll like a C.C. array because it will require very little fussing and finesse.  It's possible to make the VRX behave a bit more like a line array but that requires a high degree of granularity in the powering and processing... one of those deals where, if you have DSP/amps already, it might make sense but if you don't you'll spend a lot of cash trying to make a C.C. array into something that it's not.

So the real story of C.C. arrays is that they don't really scale up to cover larger audiences unless the audience is 'scaling up', vertically.  JBL says the VRX is suited for audiences of up to 1000 or so (geometry dependent, methinks) and I've heard VRX used for an audience larger than that (2, 2.5x) and while it didn't die trying, it sounded like it was being pushed very very hard (because it was).  The system made it through the show but the band & promoter were not happy with the results.  Not my rig, not my gig (I was a stage hand on that show), but it confirmed to me that JBL was probably right on the mark regarding what the VRX is capable of.

I've been down the road of buying gear and operating it right of the edge of it's life, only to have it fail prematurely because of the stress I put on it.  Depending on genre and SPL expectations you might get a long life from a KLA/VRX type of rig (presuming it's otherwise the right rig for the gig) or you might just make it past the warranty expiration.

Moving on, it's not that you'll be shooting over the heads of the audience or painting the ceiling (common sense *should* tell you to not do that, but we've seen the online pictures of very dubious deployments), but rather that a _prospective purchaser_ should learn to use the coverage/prediction/aiming software for each system under consideration and determine if that system appears to do what they need, or not.  If a system doesn't have either a stand-alone program or EASE Focus® data, you should immediately dismiss the product.  The software/data is an intrinsic part of the system, just like the hanging hardware.

Hanging... yes, you must.  Putting a pair of KLA/VRX on a stand does this- gives you a roughly 100° x 40° box that costs $3600.  Take a good, hard look at what you can buy for that amount - Fulcrum, VUE, JBL Venue Precision, others - and they will sound stunning.  Really.  They won't transform into a C.C. array, but they'll sound better, maybe get louder, and require little more thought in deployment beyond pointing them at the audience... but I digress.  If you do more than 2, they need height and that means lifts of some kind.  How high?  Use the software.  It won't tell you a trim height, but you'll be able to make changes and see the results.  There's a certain amount of 'lather, rinse & repeat' involved until you get a feel for a system, but you can look at what happens if you raise or lower the rig by 4 or 5 feet and change the tilt of the bumper/array frame/hanging bar; these two are interactive and also affect inter-box angles in line arrays...  At any rate, you'll need lifts sufficiently robust to support the load, represented by their manufacturer to be suitable for the circumstances in which you use them.  If you have to support >200lbs lifts get expensive really fast.

There ain't no cheap road to safely done good sound.  There are ways that are less expensive but less means some compromise, somewhere.  It's up to the system owner to decide what audio compromises can be made and still have happy clients; it's also up to the owner to decide how many times to re-spend his investment to achieve similar, lateral results.  From a business standpoint that's a bad thing to do.  For a given capability you hopefully spend only once...  If you're considering KLA to do the same jobs you're already doing, with the thinking that it will scale up and allow you to get new work, the speculation is on the new work; the accountant in me sees you replacing a marketable, working rig with newer gear without an increase in income or decrease in expenses.

Finally, infrastructure... cases, transport, storage & logistics, cabling & cable protection, lifts/hoists/other support, the hopefully inevitable expansion of mics, stands, DIs, electrical distribution... all come with growing a new rig.  I estimate that for every dollar we spent on PA speakers and amps, we spent another $0.35 on infrastructure.  Yeah, we're more industrial scale than most Lounge operators but I suspect that the ratio is pretty close, only "on what it's spent" is different.

Ray's recollection of my "unicorn of growth" is pretty close.  Jay Barracato coined the metric "3dB$"  You can read about it here:  https://soundforums.net/entries/460-The-Next-Level-the-Unicorn-of-the-production-business 

As I mentioned up-thread, I've been in the biz for 30+ years.  It is not necessary for anyone to repeat my mistakes.  8)  Been there, done that, dunno what happened to the shirt... ;)  But the biggest challenge of being in the audio business is making a profit at it...  Take some business classes, specifically general accounting and especially cost accounting.  Accounting and the analysis of your business numbers should be a prime criteria in making business decisions (or you'll find yourself supporting a hobby).  Trust me.  I nearly went broke learning this lesson.  It is not necessary to repeat my mistake... wait, there's an echo in here... here... here......

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Tim, thanks for the reply and you are head on.  As far as the capital, they are about twice the investment as the trap's over the tops KWA series.  Still, I would rather do this than step up to SRX that isn't going to fit my model.

The QSC are powered, have great software and support.  They make sense for where we are.

I have been handing business over any time we stepped in the Vertec area so that will come back in house.  I also have the luxury of time to let the business gestate.  This type of organic growth is not overnight.  I can't imagine being under the pressure to learn the gear, push it right to it's limits and make the payment/payroll.

I really appreciate the considered comments.  You guys see the number of views you get, this advice will help so many in this spot.  I lurked for 10 years without a login. 

On that note I am glad I joined because I also think I have something to give back at this point to the forums.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

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