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Author Topic: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band  (Read 2493 times)

Alex Rigodanzo

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2014, 09:35:20 am »

I was thinking about this further today.  I think seven drum mics could be used on four channels without too much compromise.  Parallel three tom mics as I suggested earlier and also parallel two overheads.  With the right resistors in the adaptor and matching mikes, I think even two phantom powered condensers will work in parallel.


Steve.

I've never paralleled tom mics, but I parallel two condensers for overheads all the time with a simple y-cord and it works just fine.  I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 09:50:55 am »

I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.

I wouldn't use a straight Y adaptor to combine two active outputs (e.g. from a mixer) into one without some resistance included to sum them together.

I think I would prefer some resistance too if paralleling two condenser mics to help even out the current share and prevent uneven voltage drop, especially if the two mics were not the same.  If one draws more current than the other, the voltage drop at pins 2 and 3 might not be enough for the other mic to work properly.

However, in reality it's probably not much of a problem as the majority of condenser mics seem to be rated between 9 and 52 volts and it's normal to use two identical mics for overheads.


Steve.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 10:24:23 am by Steve M Smith »
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Jay Barracato

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 10:18:45 am »

I've never paralleled tom mics, but I parallel two condensers for overheads all the time with a simple y-cord and it works just fine.  I know that using a y-cord to combine sources is a no-no (y-cords are for sending one source to two places), but that's mostly because it can cause cancellation of low frequencies which isn't an issue with overheads.

This may be totally radical but when I am faced with a shortage of channels i use just one overhead. As a matter of fact even when provided nearly unlimited channels I use a single overhead.

Just like with speakers, one source will always sound better than two at roughly the same level with differing arrival times.

I believe the practice simply lingers from the same days of piling more speakers as a solution to needing more level. I have read plenty of recording studio articles about what is needed to time align the two overhead mics without one of the articles mentioning what is actually gained by having two mics.

For my personal mixing, if I want to be totally excessive with a drum kit I am more likely to undermic the ride and use a single overhead for the rest of the metal.

I am a fan of always putting the mics there in the first place. Nothing says you have to use it in the mic, but if it is not there in the first place then you definitely can't use it. It is not uncommon in my mix style that at small shows the mic is not really used to increase the overall stage volume but just to add enough to change the tone. This also works with guitar amps. Don't be afraid of pretty radical channel eq settings just to provide some help to what is missing in the overall mix.
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Alex Rigodanzo

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 11:51:35 am »

I wouldn't use a straight Y adaptor to combine two active outputs (e.g. from a mixer) into one without some resistance included to sum them together.

I think I would prefer some resistance too if paralleling two condenser mics to help even out the current share and prevent uneven voltage drop, especially if the two mics were not the same.  If one draws more current than the other, the voltage drop at pins 2 and 3 might not be enough for the other mic to work properly.

However, in reality it's probably not much of a problem as the majority of condenser mics seem to be rated between 9 and 52 volts and it's normal to use two identical mics for overheads.


Steve.

The condensers I've used for overheads have always been identical units.  I have no idea which cymbals are which, but one mic is on the cymbal on drummer's left and one is over the three on his right.  Positioning is dictated more by where he won't hit them than by optimum pick up.  Gets the job done.
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Colin Miller

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2014, 12:41:41 pm »

On the subject of tom mics, I saw a band last week. Outdoors, ~200 people. K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left.

The drums had a kick and a single overhead. Sadly, the drum fills were really lost in the mix. BUT, this is a nine piece band, with two funk guitars, four vocals, and three horns. It's easy to lose things in that.

I always mic all toms, then adjust each channel as necessary. Most of the time, the 10" tom has a very low level in the mains. But any toms >12" are, and sound great coming through the mains.

I work in a 140 person capacity club.

Here's the crowd and venue from the show last week:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x28nsocwmv5e1fs/Photo%20Jul%2015%2C%207%2032%2023%20PM.jpg
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 01:32:03 pm by Colin Miller »
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Art Welter

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2014, 01:12:59 pm »

Most of the time, the 10" tom has a very level in the mains. But any toms >12" are, and sound great coming through the mains.
Quite existential thoughts, Colin  ;).
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Colin Miller

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2014, 01:32:27 pm »

Quite existential thoughts, Colin  ;).

Fixed... >_>

John Penkala

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2014, 03:24:41 pm »

Starting a small business with insufficient capital is the number one reason for failure.  Second is a business plan.  Using a U-Haul is not a viable plan and doesn't speak of any professionalism to your clients.  It's fine if it's a hobby shop but not for a serious business trying to compete.

I think using a U-Haul trailer is perfectly fine for what the OP is doing. It's especially smart not to tie up capital if they aren't sure how the venture is going to work out. And, I think bar owner's care more about the bar receipts than whether or not the band's gear showed up in a U-Haul.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2014, 06:31:26 am »

On the subject of tom mics, I saw a band last week. Outdoors, ~200 people. K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left.

The drums had a kick and a single overhead. Sadly, the drum fills were really lost in the mix. BUT, this is a nine piece band, with two funk guitars, four vocals, and three horns. It's easy to lose things in that.

Here's the crowd and venue from the show last week:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x28nsocwmv5e1fs/Photo%20Jul%2015%2C%207%2032%2023%20PM.jpg

"K10 for mains, a single sub at stage left."   Unless the panoramic shot is greatly exaggerrating depth of venue, I'd say that might be more the issue than the mic choice.  That's a lot of band and audience for that system to handle.

 Of course EQ on the overhead channel and mic placement might be the issue as well. I've had great success using a single overhead to capture toms at outdoor shows. Does help though not to have mic placed too high above kit, IMO. I usually drop it in as low as drummer can stand and  point it where ever it gives me the most even coverage.   That and remembering to drop the HPF if you're used to using overhead just for cymbals.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2014, 08:52:52 am »

I think using a U-Haul trailer is perfectly fine for what the OP is doing. It's especially smart not to tie up capital if they aren't sure how the venture is going to work out. And, I think bar owner's care more about the bar receipts than whether or not the band's gear showed up in a U-Haul.

I rent trucks all the time. No overhead, no repair costs, and transportation is a line item reimbursed for by the customer. There are a number of rental offices nearby and for most drop off where I'm going to load the truck initially is an option, so in many cases I don't even have to pick it up. And customers could give two shits about the truck or where it comes from. I am selective though. I once turned down a U-Haul rental because it was during their animals on the side period of time and the truck I was offered had a raccoon on the side of it.
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