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Author Topic: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band  (Read 17851 times)

Alan Chavis

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Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« on: July 09, 2014, 09:36:07 AM »

Hello,

I'm a member of a rock cover band.  The band consists of drums, two electric guitars, bass, lead vocal, and up to three backing vocals.  We play hard rock from classic rock to newer alternative stuff, with a few more pop/danceable tunes here and there.

We mostly play smaller outdoor gigs for 100 people or less.  Restaurant patios, backyard parties, etc.  If we are playing for a larger audience, we will likely hire a sound engineer who will provide equipment.

We currently have a Presonus 16.0.2 mixing board, two Mackie Thump TH-12A powered speakers which we're using for mains, and two Alto TS110A powered speakers which we use for floor monitors.

I'm trying to develop a strategy to upgrade our PA system that can handle our typical self-provided sound system needs.

We are somewhat space challenged because we don't currently have a trailer or a pickup truck.  We're hauling everything around in a couple of sport utes and a wagon.

It seems like the first thing we need to do is buy a subwoofer (or two).  I've been looking at the JBL PRX715XLF for its low weight and smaller size.

Would a 15" sub such as this be adequate for this application?  If we eventually bought a second 15" sub, would that be better than just having a single 18" sub?  Space-wise, it seems like a single 18" would take up less space than two 15's.

When we eventually upgrade our tops, would a 10" speaker such as the PRX710 be enough for this application, or should we be looking at 12" speakers?

Thanks for your help!

Alan
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Scott Wagner

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 10:21:20 AM »

I'm a member of a rock cover band.  The band consists of drums, two electric guitars, bass, lead vocal, and up to three backing vocals.  We play hard rock from classic rock to newer alternative stuff, with a few more pop/danceable tunes here and there.

We mostly play smaller outdoor gigs for 100 people or less.  Restaurant patios, backyard parties, etc.  If we are playing for a larger audience, we will likely hire a sound engineer who will provide equipment.

We currently have a Presonus 16.0.2 mixing board, two Mackie Thump TH-12A powered speakers which we're using for mains, and two Alto TS110A powered speakers which we use for floor monitors.

I'm trying to develop a strategy to upgrade our PA system that can handle our typical self-provided sound system needs.

We are somewhat space challenged because we don't currently have a trailer or a pickup truck.  We're hauling everything around in a couple of sport utes and a wagon.

It seems like the first thing we need to do is buy a subwoofer (or two).  I've been looking at the JBL PRX715XLF for its low weight and smaller size.

Would a 15" sub such as this be adequate for this application?  If we eventually bought a second 15" sub, would that be better than just having a single 18" sub?  Space-wise, it seems like a single 18" would take up less space than two 15's.

When we eventually upgrade our tops, would a 10" speaker such as the PRX710 be enough for this application, or should we be looking at 12" speakers?
First off, almost anything would be an improvement over the Thumps. Now back to the topic at hand.  Personally, I prefer 12" FOH cabinets when paired with subs; however, the PRX710 is a fairly potent little beast, and either would be a huge upgrade to your rig.  Have you considered a single PRX718?  Place it in front of DSC (ie: dead center in front of the stage).  For monitors, I've had surprisingly good results with the Alto SXM112a.  They're dirt cheap, and do a really good job.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 11:53:59 AM »

I think the Thuds (because they sound best hitting the dumpster, but I'm called a gear snob here) are the current weak link in your system.

In business it is best to NOT make lateral moves, say replacing the Thumps with a similar box, then adding subs and replacing the replacement tops with smaller top boxes.  You're buying the same basic capability twice, to replace something inadequate at its initial purchase.

There are 2 Wonderful Generalizations®-

1)  Buy once, cry once.
2)  The wrong product at the 'right price' is still the wrong product.

These go together.  I'd add - if you don't have the time/money/interest to do something right the first time, when will you have the time/money/interest to do it all over?
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Alan Chavis

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 12:08:34 PM »

Have you considered a single PRX718?

Thanks for the reply.  I have considered the PRX718.  I guess I have two questions related to this:

1.  Is an 18" sub going to be that much better for my application to justify the extra size and weight over the 15" version?

2.  Am I better off with a single 18" sub than two 15" subs, or should I just plan to buy two 18" subs?
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Alan Chavis

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 12:13:28 PM »

I think the Thuds (because they sound best hitting the dumpster, but I'm called a gear snob here) are the current weak link in your system.

Wow!  No love for the Thumps around here!  I guess we are right to be upgrading our system!

1)  Buy once, cry once.
2)  The wrong product at the 'right price' is still the wrong product.

These go together.  I'd add - if you don't have the time/money/interest to do something right the first time, when will you have the time/money/interest to do it all over?

OK, this makes perfect sense, and Buy Once, Cry Once is precisely what we need to do.

Fundamentally, I'd like to understand what type of system would meet our needs, then purchase the components (possibly in stages depending on what we can afford).

Would a couple of 12" tops over a single 18" sub do what we need?  Do we need two subs?  Could we use 15" subs to save space?

Thanks!

Alan
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Art Welter

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 01:38:07 PM »

1)Would a couple of 12" tops over a single 18" sub do what we need? 
2)Do we need two subs? 
3)Could we use 15" subs to save space?
Alan,

1) Yes, if they are of decent quality.
2) No, if one sub can provide the sound pressure level (SPL) you want.
2) A pair of 15" will not likely save vehicle space over a single 18", but can be used as a base for a pole mount, which is more stable than a stand taking up similar floor space, and more consistent than a single sub randomly placed.

A pair of 15" have considerably more cone area than one 18" ( about 266 square inches compared to 177) so generally will put out more SPL.

A pair of 12" are close to the same cone area as one 18", so can generally outrun a typical 18".
If you don't need to go super low, but want very compact, the DSL TH-Mini can equal the output of a typical 18", but cost more.

Art
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Thomas Le

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 02:28:17 PM »

If you're budget-conscious, you could use the thumps as extra monitors, they aren't good enough for mains.

Going sub-sat would greatly improve your sound so that the tops don't have to struggle trying to cover the whole spectrum. A typical config would be a 12 pole mounted on an 18. What's your budget?
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Alan Chavis

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 03:04:37 PM »

What's your budget?

I think we are willing to spend whatever it takes to get a good system that meets our needs.

However, I'd probably lean toward getting more back for my buck rather than spending more just for the top-of-the-line when it doesn't really gain us much.

We aren't touring and we try to take care of our stuff, so we don't need as much durability as others might.

I was looking at the Yamaha DXR series, which seems like it could be a good middle ground, but the subs don't appear to have their own crossovers, so that would preclude us from using them with our existing mains if we wanted to purchase new mains at a later time.

The size and weight of the JBL PRX715XLF sub is what attracted me to JBL, although I realize it is quite a bit more expensive than some of the other options.

We would like to end up with a completely new system, but it might be necessary for us to upgrade a few parts at a time.  Sub or subs, then new mains, then new monitors, etc.

Thanks for the help!

Alan
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2014, 03:21:54 PM »

I think we are willing to spend whatever it takes to get a good system that meets our needs.

However, I'd probably lean toward getting more back for my buck rather than spending more just for the top-of-the-line when it doesn't really gain us much.

We aren't touring and we try to take care of our stuff, so we don't need as much durability as others might.

I was looking at the Yamaha DXR series, which seems like it could be a good middle ground, but the subs don't appear to have their own crossovers, so that would preclude us from using them with our existing mains if we wanted to purchase new mains at a later time.

The size and weight of the JBL PRX715XLF sub is what attracted me to JBL, although I realize it is quite a bit more expensive than some of the other options.

We would like to end up with a completely new system, but it might be necessary for us to upgrade a few parts at a time.  Sub or subs, then new mains, then new monitors, etc.

Thanks for the help!

Alan

I suggest that you adopt a 'full system' approach, not mix and match different brands and models.  That said, if you've decided to buy XYZ subs today and plan to replace the Thuds with XYZ tops in 6 months, maybe we can find a way to make it all play nicer for that time.

The powered Yamaha boxes are getting good reviews here, the JBL PRX 700 series seem to have enthusiastic users, RCF, Alto, others...

Sorry I can't suggest specific models - my situation isn't like yours - what I hope to accomplish is for you and your band to not make multiple lateral purchases.

You told us a little about your band a music but can you give us more details?  Do you now, or plan on micing up the whole drum kit?  Do you run guitars or bass through the PA?  If you don't and have no future plans to do so, we might have different suggestions than the path you're currently asking about.
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Alan Chavis

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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 03:32:27 PM »

You told us a little about your band a music but can you give us more details?  Do you now, or plan on micing up the whole drum kit?  Do you run guitars or bass through the PA?  If you don't and have no future plans to do so, we might have different suggestions than the path you're currently asking about.

We mic the kick drum and the snare, then we have a couple of condensers up top to capture hi hat, toms, and cymbols.  I don't think we plan on adding any more drum mics for our typical gigs.

We've been running both guitars and bass into the PA.  This is not out of necessity as both guitar amps are plenty loud on their own, but rather because we would prefer to keep our on-stage volume lower and use the mains for the audience levels.  Our bass player just bought a new 500 watt 2x10 amp, so we may not need bass in the mains any more.
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Re: Help with PA Strategy for Rock Band
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 03:32:27 PM »


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