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Author Topic: Simple old school PAR light rig  (Read 1103 times)

Ron Hebbard

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:58:46 am »

I'm strickly talking single phase here, in the festival world 3 phase isn't generally something we do.

While of course you can run the par cans off a 200AMP distro try adding any addtional rented and or upgraded fixtures (rented discharge lamp moving heads) or rented followspots and it will easily put you above a limits of a 200AMP distro. you'll want to have plenty of head room rented and or future gear, and with lighting that power gets used up - much much faster than audio. In audio a 14-50 50AMP single phase (50 on each leg) would be able to power a pretty decent sized concerts, not so much with lighting.

Hi again Jason;

No argument here re:  how additional loads mount up but I'd still like you to explain to me how your 32 - 1 Kw lamps require a 300 Amp service regardless of single or triple phase.
Please show me your math that gets you there.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 03:23:29 am »

Hi again Jason;

No argument here re:  how additional loads mount up but I'd still like you to explain to me how your 32 - 1 Kw lamps require a 300 Amp service regardless of single or triple phase.
Please show me your math that gets you there.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Re-read my last post.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 07:24:08 am »

So LED's are nice and all, but they don't have the same effect as a good PAR can, nor do LED's look as good as one to the front.  So, what I'd like to do, is build a simple rig of PAR's (8-12 trees of 4 with a dimmer pack on each) with a 200A single phase distro to go with it.  This way, I can either take just 2 trees on a small show on T-bars, or set them up with 4 on the front and either LED's or the other trees on the back, or any combination.  Where would be the best place to start to purchase cheap (but decent) cans and figuring out the best way to wire everything up?  Also, what would be the best size bulbs to use?  Biggest stage these would see will probably be a 32 x 28 if that.

(Also to note, at some times they will be used with LED's as well for color wash.  And yes I do realize the irony that one of my older topics on lighting is pretty much directly below (or maybe even above) this one)
While I agree that LED white generally isn't great (though there are products that can do it well for $$$$), I can't fathom buying 1K PAR64s in 2014.

I'm not sure what look you need, but your dissatisfaction with LEDs may be related to older models and/or bottom of the barrel stuff. 

As to cost, unless you already own the lights and power infrastructure, it seems hard to believe that conventional PARs will be cheaper - especially in the long run.  A cheap PAR can and bulb may be only $50 or so, but 32KW of dimmers of any kind is going to be big bucks.  I saw a 32-channel ETC Sensor rack that was $4,000 used, I believe, and now you need socapex cables or some other method of distribution.  Now you factor extra power distribution, truck space for all that cabling, and the fact that you still have standard one-trick lights and therefore more of them to set up to get any kind of lighting palette, and it's not cheaper or better (IMO) anymore.

I do stages approximately the size you are talking about - usually 32X24, and I use a combination of LED pars and ETC Source Four fixtures with 575w lamps.  I do all of the color work with my LEDs, and use the conventionals only for front white.  I will never go back, and am starting to shop to see what's out there for dedicated white LED fixtures to start replacing the remaining conventionals I use.

If you really want to stay in the conventional world, at the very least get ETC S4 PARs with modern bulbs.  I'm very confident you would be happy with the 575w bulbs, which means you can drop down a dimmer class and still survive - something like this:
http://leprecon.com/products/product/9
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jasonfinnigan

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 12:43:53 pm »

and it's not cheaper or better (IMO) anymore.
Exactly. The Power and Dimmers is where all your money would be at. Not to mention on stage talent Hate them because of how hot they are.
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Ron Hebbard

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 01:22:29 pm »

Re-read my last post.

Hi Jason;

O.K., I've re-read your last post; again, please explain your math re:  how 32 - 1 Kw. lamps require a 300 Amp service if single phase.  I must be thick as I'm not seeing this.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
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Mark Cadwallader

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 01:39:34 pm »

Hi Jason;

O.K., I've re-read your last post; again, please explain your math re:  how 32 - 1 Kw. lamps require a 300 Amp service if single phase.  I must be thick as I'm not seeing this.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Ron, in post # 7, I believe that Jason agrees (admits) that a person can run 32 1KW lamps from a 200 amp distro, but he goes on to say that if you add additional, unspecified loads you could exceed 200 amp.

Post # 7 was hardly Jason's "last post", btw. I don't think you are being dense. Mark C.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 11:06:46 am »

I have recently been watching the LED Light bulbs and have found that Home Depot and Lowes have been selling some Par38 Flood and Spot light bulbs for around $30.   These bulbs are starting to have the temperature of 4000 k and 5000 k. 
making them equal or hotter than some of the halogens.  With par38 cans it would be easy to use them and produce a smaller bar type rig for a show.   You will not have the power draw of the 500 watt PAR 64 or the 1000 watt. 

The question left here is the lumens and the FC. 

I have been wanting to do this for small plays and the bar scenes.   Still working on the budget of the small weekend budgets.  Most of the bands are bar low budget and want the sound and will not pay for the addition of the lights.

Then if they do have lights they focus to much on the frills and action and cause the artist to be in silhouette.  Fixing this with a small set of par38's can help but getting a lighting tree out in front of the artist, stage, and speakers is a liability problem with wires and tree out in the crowd. 

On some of the small theater work I have done it is easier and safer to place the lighting and keeping the crowds away.
  I have a stage setter 8 with 4 DP415 dimmer packs to work with. 

Funding the 12 cans is easy because I have found Bulbs America on amazon sells 4 par 38 cans for $50. 
  150 for the 12 cans is small.   Adding in the LED flood lights is $360.   2 Trees $100.  So adding 600 to lighting for bands not paying extra for the lights is still above my budget.  But adding the lighting would bring something to the table the other sound people do not bring. 

I also run some other PAR 56 LED  DMX,  Laser, and dance lighting on a DMX Operator controller for smarter lights. 
This would place my system with two universe for operation. 

Programed and chases on DMX operator. 

Manual control of the white lights for following the solo or leads on stage.

As the LED lights move into the theater to provide the strong single output and the correct lumens with color temp, we should see a move to the new lights and using LED more.   Can we do so without having to change our investment in the fixtures?   

With wireless tech added in and a good car battery powering a small 400 watt inverter placed under the light tree. 
help to remove the wires and trip hazards, yes  done that and it helps in the crowd.  Having a safety person to watch and ensure lighting is safe was used, preventing the stand from being knocked over.   
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 11:57:57 am »

I have recently been watching the LED Light bulbs and have found that Home Depot and Lowes have been selling some Par38 Flood and Spot light bulbs for around $30.   These bulbs are starting to have the temperature of 4000 k and 5000 k. 
making them equal or hotter than some of the halogens.  With par38 cans it would be easy to use them and produce a smaller bar type rig for a show.   You will not have the power draw of the 500 watt PAR 64 or the 1000 watt. 

The question left here is the lumens and the FC. 

I have been wanting to do this for small plays and the bar scenes.   Still working on the budget of the small weekend budgets.  Most of the bands are bar low budget and want the sound and will not pay for the addition of the lights.

Then if they do have lights they focus to much on the frills and action and cause the artist to be in silhouette.  Fixing this with a small set of par38's can help but getting a lighting tree out in front of the artist, stage, and speakers is a liability problem with wires and tree out in the crowd. 

On some of the small theater work I have done it is easier and safer to place the lighting and keeping the crowds away.
  I have a stage setter 8 with 4 DP415 dimmer packs to work with. 

Funding the 12 cans is easy because I have found Bulbs America on amazon sells 4 par 38 cans for $50. 
  150 for the 12 cans is small.   Adding in the LED flood lights is $360.   2 Trees $100.  So adding 600 to lighting for bands not paying extra for the lights is still above my budget.  But adding the lighting would bring something to the table the other sound people do not bring. 

I also run some other PAR 56 LED  DMX,  Laser, and dance lighting on a DMX Operator controller for smarter lights. 
This would place my system with two universe for operation. 

Programed and chases on DMX operator. 

Manual control of the white lights for following the solo or leads on stage.

As the LED lights move into the theater to provide the strong single output and the correct lumens with color temp, we should see a move to the new lights and using LED more.   Can we do so without having to change our investment in the fixtures?   

With wireless tech added in and a good car battery powering a small 400 watt inverter placed under the light tree. 
help to remove the wires and trip hazards, yes  done that and it helps in the crowd.  Having a safety person to watch and ensure lighting is safe was used, preventing the stand from being knocked over.
Color temperature does not equate to intensity. A 4000K bulb will look very blue, and IMO very bizarre on stage. It will also not actually be brighter than a normal 2700K bulb, though it may appear so, since it will look so blue.

There will almost certainly be issues with dimming conventional home-grade LEDs on entertainment dimmers - most LEDs require either a full sine wave dimmer or a reverse-phase dimmer, of which your tree packs are neither.

A PAR38 home-grade LED bulb puts out maybe 800 lumens; an HPL575 bulb puts out about 14,000 lumens.

There may be a couple very specific situations where what you are proposing may have some value, but home-grade bulbs (and par38 cans in general) won't do much for a real show.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Simple old school PAR light rig
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 10:45:51 am »

Depending on the size of the show, yes.  With smaller bar type bands and smaller shows the throw distance is shorter in length.  I find typically around 5 to 10 ft.  Most of the time there is no space in front of the band available to have a light tree.  Par 38 LED's are available for dimming.  One has to be careful that it is approved by the manufacture for a dimmer.   With a shorter distance to the stage for a front light one may not need that higher level of the stage 14,000 lumens.  I do agree that having higher output lamps is like a bigger amp on speakers.  Better to have to much and turn down.   Than to want more and can not go above the current level.
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