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Author Topic: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?  (Read 1118 times)

Jim McKeveny

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2014, 08:11:37 am »

Read thread. Quite an issue. Best of luck!
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Kashif Hudson

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 12:22:41 pm »

Thanks Jim. Just an update. Today we used a 9000i and 5000i on the RS880s and the sound quality in high frequency range is better than with the 12000i. In theory we all know an amplifier should amplify the signal we put in it. But I'm starting to agree with the likes of Ivan Beaver, Art Welter and a few others that encourage side by side comparisons to really experience the sonic character of the equipment we use. Spec sheets alone is only half the story and some things are not evident with measuring. All in all, we should pay attention to what we hear and ask questions even if our peers don't notice. Sometimes, they simple have not done a side by side comparison to see if they are able to notice a difference.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 01:17:22 pm »

Seems Crown made an engineering and marketing decision that has unexpected sonic consequences for some users. This is too bad. Pro users are typically discriminating, loyal, purchase dozens of units, and influence the purchase of many more.

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Matthew Knischewsky

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 10:28:34 pm »

Thanks Jim. Just an update. Today we used a 9000i and 5000i on the RS880s and the sound quality in high frequency range is better than with the 12000i. In theory we all know an amplifier should amplify the signal we put in it. But I'm starting to agree with the likes of Ivan Beaver, Art Welter and a few others that encourage side by side comparisons to really experience the sonic character of the equipment we use. Spec sheets alone is only half the story and some things are not evident with measuring. All in all, we should pay attention to what we hear and ask questions even if our peers don't notice. Sometimes, they simple have not done a side by side comparison to see if they are able to notice a difference.

Do you have any measurements of the various amplifiers powering your speaker?
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 10:40:15 pm »


Seems Crown made an engineering and marketing decision that has unexpected sonic consequences for some users. This is too bad. Pro users are typically discriminating, loyal, purchase dozens of units, and influence the purchase of many more.

Have you seen "no crown" on any riders?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Kashif Hudson

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2014, 11:30:37 pm »

Matthew,

No raw data has been collected from the amplifiers as yet. We sort of tried the 12000i on mid-hi duty and noticed the behavior by ear. But we are confident in using the 9000i and 5000i for the job.

Let me be clear to all; We are happy with our current crown setup because it works for us! I would also recommend these units to anyone.

However, I now understand from the discussions that I linked in previous posts why we heard a sonic difference between the amplifiers. Crown already explained a few points on the subject and we are satisfied.

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 07:45:10 am »

Do you have any measurements of the various amplifiers powering your speaker?
There are TONS of different measurements that can be done on all sorts of gear. 

The "simple" numbers do little to tell about about the actual sonic character of an amp-speaker-mic etc.

I love the people (especially HI-FI guys who say they can hear differences but you can't measure them.

WRONG- they are just using the wrong tools measuring the wrong thing.

We can measure all sorts of things that we cannot hear/detect.

BUT you have to be measuring the right thing.

And when comparing products-if you don't have the same measurement-collected in the same way-you really don't have anything to compare to.

Hence my insistence about side by side listening.

AND EVEN THEN- it is often hard to actually setup a fair comparison.

Have you ever tried to compare full range cabinets side by side?

How do you set the levels so they are equal?  Anybody who has tried (and has a basic knowledge level) will quickly realize it is much harder than expected.


Do you use pink noise?  What if one cabinet has a response that is not as flat as the others?  What if one goes lower or higher?  Do you use a sine wave at 1K?  What if one cabinet has a little peak at 1K while the other has a little dip?

Do you try to use something like Smaart-TEF-Systune etc?

THEN it gets even harder to figure out what is "equal".

It is amazing how different one cabinet can sound-even when the level is 0.5dB louder.  You "think" you hear all sorts of differences.

I know I have been fooled by even small levels.

I'll stop now--------------

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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Jim McKeveny

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Re: Crown Ma12000i suffers on mid-hi duty!?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 10:37:13 am »

Have you seen "no crown" on any riders?


Not to date. But I have seen "No Vertec". "No EAW". "No Meyer M2D" etc. Perhaps not completely rational, but surprising stuff nonetheless.

It is obvious that first-tier artists & management wholly prefer the packaged FOH systems of speakers/amps/processing from a single manufacturer a la L'Acoustics, D&B, etc. Big upfront buy-in costs. ? returns.

The days of system component mix & match (and the sometime discovery of particular combination response aberrations) are fairly well done for national soundco's. Regionals who grew used to the incrementalism ( i.e.: speakers this season, amps next, processing later) of rig improvement may have to reconsider that methodology.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 11:04:17 am by Jim McKeveny »
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