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Author Topic: Ringing Out  (Read 1911 times)

Steve M Smith

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2014, 12:37:08 pm »

I would never presume to know what the EQ settings will be and will always start with the EQ flat.  Usually cutting four or five frequencies a bit is enough to tame the resonances in a room.

Think of the graphic EQ as a method to match the system to the room.  Once you have done that, just use the channel EQ to make any changes you want to individual inputs.


Steve.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2014, 12:41:47 pm »

I would never presume to know what the EQ settings will be and will always start with the EQ flat.  Usually cutting four or five frequencies a bit is enough to tame the resonances in a room.

Think of the graphic EQ as a method to match the system to the room.  Once you have done that, just use the channel EQ to make any changes you want to individual inputs.


Steve.

My system EQ is a combination of my DR 4800 and a touch of the Expression output EQ. I haven't need to touch the system EQ in more than 2 years. Everything needed for the room can be handled quite well using the channel strip EQ.
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Art Welter

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2014, 12:43:26 pm »



Hi Art. We're using Yammy 115V's for mains, behind us (Bob Leonard's method), and have only tried this once or twice.
 I can get acceptable levels, I just want to see if I can improve my system.
Bob,

Putting the speakers behind the mics as you have done should eliminate the need for monitors, but makes the mics prone to HF feedback. From what I understood from Bob L., and my own experience, the mains can be placed in a flanking position and still cover you and the audience OK, but in the position you show as soon as your head is not between the mains and the mic, it will feed back if you are using more than moderate gain.

Your mains are more focused at the mics than your monitors, if you want to use both, prop the monitors up so you are looking down the center of the horn, and move your mains so you are out of their coverage pattern. Monitors work because they face the "dead" side of the cardioid mic pick up pattern, you can't expect as much gain from the mains when they are on the side of the mic that hears well.

That said, skip the monitors, put the mains out of the mic pickup pattern and use some in ear monitors and your feedback and intelligibility problems will be gone.

Art
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Steve.Oldridge

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 01:27:12 pm »

Monitors right now are Peavey PR-12 (which I hate and am returning - to be replaced with Yammy CM12Vs.)
 

Bob, looking at your pic, if you place monitors on the floor like that, it probably won't change your experience by going with CM12V's...   monitors are directional by design and you will hear them better if they are pointing at your head and not your knees. :)
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lindsay Dean

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 01:36:40 pm »

Bob,

Putting the speakers behind the mics as you have done should eliminate the need for monitors, but makes the mics prone to HF feedback. From what I understood from Bob L., and my own experience, the mains can be placed in a flanking position and still cover you and the audience OK, but in the position you show as soon as your head is not between the mains and the mic, it will feed back if you are using more than moderate gain.

Your mains are more focused at the mics than your monitors, if you want to use both, prop the monitors up so you are looking down the center of the horn, and move your mains so you are out of their coverage pattern. Monitors work because they face the "dead" side of the cardioid mic pick up pattern, you can't expect as much gain from the mains when they are on the side of the mic that hears well.

That said, skip the monitors, put the mains out of the mic pickup pattern and use some in ear monitors and your feedback and intelligibility problems will be gone.

Art

The mains behind the mic line can be a problem depending on the pattern.  The sound will be picked up by the mics and reproduced through the mon and mains, then arriving at your ears at different times causing an odd phase cancellation thing that you will try to adjust , not fun! my recomendations would be,
1.Use good quality cardiod mics,cheap or mismatched vocal mics can wreak havoc on monitor eq , get the strips set on all instrument/ vocals /tracks the way you like through a set of over the ear reference head phones you prefer
2. Get the mains forward of the mic line is best, or as far to each side as possible in the center of each wall behind you
3. Guitar amps  mic's vocal mics etc. are set up the same everytime.
4. Gain structure , ive seen main out on mixers way up channel strips down , not good .
 
 The only thing to change Is the main / mon eq to suit each room. you will chase your tail constantly if your adjusting channels and main eq,s to get it
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 01:41:26 pm by lindsay Dean »
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2014, 04:09:49 pm »

One thing no one's mentioned is your mic preamps. If they're too hot you're much more susceptible to feedback. You don't need you trim/gain/pre-amp cranked to get decent sound out of your mics if you've got some headroom in the system elsewhere.  I'm also of the mindset that you really shouldn't have to do much of anything with your channel strip eq other than  rolling off your lows if you don't have an adequate HPF.  Mine remain at 12 oclock almost 100% of the time for every channel. Making changes there before EQing the system is a recipe for disaster. 

dick rees

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 04:17:51 pm »

One thing no one's mentioned is your mic preamps. If they're too hot you're much more susceptible to feedback. You don't need you trim/gain/pre-amp cranked to get decent sound out of your mics if you've got some headroom in the system elsewhere.  I'm also of the mindset that you really shouldn't have to do much of anything with your channel strip eq other than  rolling off your lows if you don't have an adequate HPF.  Mine remain at 12 oclock almost 100% of the time for every channel. Making changes there before EQing the system is a recipe for disaster.

Nope.  Sorry, but it's overall system gain and it matters not where you get it regarding the threshold of feedback. 

You can run your pre's hot or cold, but you'll just end up running something else cold or hot to compensate.  Set your input gains properly such that the distance from the noise floor is as equal as possible at every device and point of adjusment in the signal chain.
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2014, 07:50:54 pm »

I may be missing something here but are the system EQ's not used to tune the room and the discrepancies in the cabinets themselves?? No cabinet will be flat unless it comes with its own processor that will have notch filters built in to adjust the resonant frequencies out of the cabinets, even with a processor it would be very hard to come accross a completely flat room. In my humble opinion you should always tune the system first with a vocal mic to get an idea of what the room is doing then run some good quality well produced music through to further tune the system, once the sytem is as close to flat as you can get it then use the desk eq's to tune each line.......my next peice of advise is pretty much the same as Tim has said, dont be scared to cut frequencies to reach your objective after all isnt that why the eq has the ability to cut in the first place???? if you have a gain loss due to cutting frequencies this can be made up through the desk, compressor or crossover output stages.....usually a little bit added to each will assure a cleaner signal path unless you are using high end compressors such as Aphex Compellor/Dominator or such....................of course using a program such as SI Smaart or another RTA program on a laptop would make life easier but not necessary.

I tend to run my inputs quite low, the reason for this is to eliminate spill from intruments/monitors..........if you look at it sensibly the more you increase the gain on a mic the more area that mic will pick up and the objective is to keep that area as small as possible then build the gain up through the desk and if necessary boost via your outboard gear, I find this creates more AIR in the mix so it is easier to just place your instruments/Vocals where you want them giving a much fuller and cleaner sound.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 08:07:34 pm by Mike Kirby »
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2014, 07:58:00 pm »

I may be missing something here but are the system EQ's not used to tune the room and the discrepancies in the cabinets themselves?? No cabinet will be flat unless it comes with its own processor that will have notch filters built in to adjust the resonant frequencies out of the cabinets, even with a processor it would be very hard to come accross a completely flat room. In my humble opinion you should always tune the system first with a vocal mic to get an idea of what the room is doing then run some good quality well produced music through to further tune the system, once the sytem is as close to flat as you can get it then use the desk eq's to tune each line.......my next peice of advise is pretty much the same as Tim has said, dont be scared to cut frequencies to reach your objective after all isnt that why the eq has the ability to cut in the first place???? if you have a gain loss due to cutting frequencies this can be made up through the desk, compressor or crossover output stages.....usually a little bit added to each will assure a cleaner signal path unless you are using high end compressors such as Aphex Compellor/Dominator or such...................of course using a program such as SI Smaart or another RTA program on a laptop would make life easier but not necessary

The only EQ that can "tune" a room is the D9 EQ.  It can flatten things in a hurry.

/nudge, wink
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Mike Kirby

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Re: Ringing Out
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2014, 08:08:36 pm »

The only EQ that can "tune" a room is the D9 EQ.  It can flatten things in a hurry.

/nudge, wink

I love my White 4500's :)  I have been tuning by ear for quite sometime so it is not difficult for me but I do understand that trying to find the right harmonic for some would be quite difficult so a self tuning eq or a driverack would be easier.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 08:14:31 pm by Mike Kirby »
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