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Author Topic: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...  (Read 12546 times)

Steve M Smith

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 02:22:32 PM »

I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments...

Have you see Hayseed Dixie?  They could just about be speed metal without changing any instruments!  (I did monitors for them a few years ago).


Steve.
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 02:50:56 PM »

Blake - for "sound people" new to the arena (such as yourself), I usually suggest posting your location.  By doing this, perhaps someone on the forum is near you and can stop by to help you with your system.  It's exponentially easier to learn about about that stuff (gates, compressors, limiters, etc...) by watching someone setup it up while you can ask questions. 

We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area

So this narrows it down a bit... :)

But really, Blake, +2 to what everyone is saying-- keep it simple. Focus on getting your basic mix on the Presonus, and then start playing with the outboard. Dick and Tim are both highly respected on here; take their advice to heart.

- The Presonus *will* sound different - it's now a matter of adjusting that sound to your taste. You're getting a brand new board with current tech on it, and replacing one that's probably 10+ years old, and from a different manufacturer.
- Try connecting it up in your practice space, let the band rip, and then change something. EQ, add a compressor, whatever. Record. Playback, listen. As a band. What do you like, not like? As Tim says, experience is something you will get, and mistakes will be made-- and gear these days is a lot more forgiving. He'll tell you stories about taking out rigs, driving them as hard as possible til shit breaks, having to pay to fix it, and then changing practices based on what caused it to break!

Check back in with us and let us know what happens!

-Ray
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 03:08:59 PM »

Thanks, Ray.  If I know anything at all, it's because I've made the mistakes leading to knowledge.  I should know a lot by now...

To the OP:

System deployment and tuning have EVERYTHING to do with the efficacy of any EQ/tonal adjustments on the board.  If the system is not in proper adjustment, then the results of such things as channel EQ will be all over the map...through no fault of the desk.

There's a whole lot in addition to which mixer is patched in.  Excuse me while I exit the pulpit... 
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Rob Dellwood

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 04:10:28 PM »

So i have always been the sound guy for the band... no big deal...

until i decided to dump my mackie cfx16 and buy a presonus 16.4.2AI!  Now that there is a lot more possible to do with this board... i'm kind of at a loss of what to do with it!  All i know is less is more in terms of achieving good sound.  I'm working on trying to not overmix my rig and I just need a better understanding of the mindset off a live sound engineer!  We do about 100+ shows a year in the MI/IN/OH area, so becoming a serious sound man is very high on my priority list because my ears and hands are in control of what the people are hearing which to me is just as big a deal as playing and singing the right notes!

Now, with that little bit of background (and hopefully not boring any of you!) I need some direction on how to understand what this new soundboard is allowing me to do.  At heart I am an analog guy, and anything digital mentioned to me i'll generally put my nose up in the air to it haha.  That being said, I know that not all digital things are bad and after much consideration I decided to get the presonus because it is basically everything that i need as a sound man for the next couple years doing smaller gigs and running sound for the band myself. (was going to put together an analog rig but everything is in this one counsel and it just seemed like the way to go, plus a very good friend of ours who runs sound for a living recommended this board to me)

SO, here I am prosoundweb!  I look forward to learning how to tackling this seemingly daunting task of being a great sound man haha and i know it wont be easy, but i have a good ear and i just need to be able to analyze in my brain what my ear is trying to tell me!

So far i have been working exclusively on monitor mixes and trying to understand feedback frequencies so we can have the stage loud enough so we can deliver a good show (cause if the band can't hear themselves or we are dealing with feedback, how can we even play a show worth listening to?)  I downloaded a little feedback trainer app for my computer and I have been working with that... I also downloaded a frequency analyzer for my iphone so that I can quickly adjust frequencies i need to for now, but i'm hoping to rely on my ears a bit more for that later in my career.

Anyways thanks for reading my little (or large!) introduction of myself and i'll be looking to pick your brains a lot here in the near future!

Blake Short
www.thewhistlestoprevue.com

Going from analog to digital can be a bit of a challenge, but there are lots of resources available, like this forum. If you haven't already, you should go to YouTube and watch the many tutorials containing great ideas and tips for using the Presonus.  As to the monitors, that board should have a 31-band EQ available in addition to the PEQ, so you have plenty of control in dialing in monitors.  Same thing for the main outs, for adjusting for different venues.

You should be able to get your entire show set up, with your monitors rung out so they are reasonably loud with no feedback, and then 'save' your show as a baseline. Then, for every new venue, you can call up your saved show, and adjust as needed for that room. If you like, you can then save THAT show, so the next time you play there, you simply load that show and you are good to go. Doing this can save a lot of time if you rotate playing the same venues.

As others have posted, start with the basics, get your 'baseline' show established, and then going forward you can add any processing after that.
Have fun! 
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 04:18:07 PM »

Main differences, analog to digital:

1.  "Virtual" cabling.
2.  Meters in dBfs
3.  select what channel/mix/send etc you want to work on.
     Make sure the FAT channel knobs you're using are applied to the desired channel...
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Jim Neighbors

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 04:38:11 PM »

I bought a Studiolive when they first came out,  was my first adventure away from analogue.  One important item I learned quickly when setting up the gain on the Studiolive is to keep the level between -15 and -10 when possible. 

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 05:17:03 PM »

I bought a Studiolive when they first came out,  was my first adventure away from analogue.  One important item I learned quickly when setting up the gain on the Studiolive is to keep the level between -15 and -10 when possible.

If it's metering in DBFS, more like -20.
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Blake Short

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 05:25:20 PM »

I'm trying to suss out your experience level and what conditions you're up against.  Mostly it looks like inexperience, and that's why I said "you get to make mistakes."  Mistakes are how we learn, by fixing/correcting whatever made the bad noise or didn't make enough good noise.

I work with an act that is labeled "bluegrass" but could just as easily be a speed metal act if you changed 2 instruments... with all the SPL issues that come with a metal act.  I've worked with numerous acts that were so quiet that getting enough level in the house before feedback was the challenge.  That's a pretty broad spectrum, and figuring out where your band sits in that spectrum is useful to the rest of us in helping find some solutions with you.

Based on your reply I take it you perform in the band.  That presents operational issues for you and is another reason I suggest that you not jump in with compressors and gates right away.  As to the difference in sound between your old and new mixers, it's simple - they *are* different.  Despite science and precision technology, every manufacturer implements EQ differently.  Some of the differences aren't so big and others far from subtle; the change from Mackie to Presonus probably qualifies as the latter.  There's no magic bullet or secret sauce, you'll need to start from scratch.  This is an issue band engineers have to face when they don't carry a mixer with them - on a different desk every day, they're expected to make each performance sound as much alike as possible.  With any luck, you'll only have to do this once and then brush it up from time to time.

I already have some ideas of what *might* be happening, but until we learn more I'll refrain from posting my speculation.  And yeah, I've been doing this for 30 years, over 20 of that mixing bluegrass for 75 folks or 5,000 folks... I've got a head start on you and much of what I do instinctively is not stuff you would know to do.  I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps overestimated your experience level.

Yes i perform in the band and yes it poses many operational issues!!!!  I dont get to hear whats coming out of the mains!  That always weighs on my mind during performance...

Ive always been the sound guy but that just meant turning a couple knobs on an outdated mixer haha.   My knowledge of sound is not expansive, but ithis is why i am here!  Need to know what these tools do and how to use them when the time arises! 

Were in different types of rooms all the time, big and boomy, loud patrons, outside, small and confined, and rarely do i ever get the chance to have the room to the band for a soundcheck!  The scene is changing all the time, which is why i liked the presonus's ability to save settings so i can come back to them later for that particular room.

As you all have stated ill just try and take it one question at a time and i need to do some reading on my own so ill be looking for aome tips on some good things to read that are at my current comprehension level haha.  Thanks for all the responses to everyone and i know there are a lot of knowledgable people on here that could help me out a lot!
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 05:25:44 PM »

If it's metering in DBFS, more like -20.

Yes, channel metering is in DBFS.  I found -15 to be as hot as a channel should go on the SLive.

Note to the OP:

DBFS is "full scale", meaning that zero is as far as it goes.  That would correspond to +16 on your analog DBVU meters.  Note also that the sub-group and master metering is in DBVU just like your analog gear was.  Having two different scales can be a bit to get used to.

You'll likely find the use of the FAT led's as meter bridge to be helpful running show.  Being able to see per channel output levels at a glance is a good thing, especially when mixing from the stage.  Once you get used to it you'll be able to balance a mix with your eyes.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 05:28:15 PM by dick rees »
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Thomas Le

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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 06:05:16 PM »

IMO

Have you looked at the QU16 or X32 producer? They offer way more and everything is recallable, it boggles my mind as to why the studiolive isn't fully recallable at this price point...

If you're still willing to go passive, the Yamaha club series will be an improvement to the JRX, otherwise active cabs might be a viable alternative if the budget is right.

Also, before going Beta87A, try the SM variant, I find it's more smooth and not sharp sounding at the HF.


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Re: Becoming the main soundman for my bluegrass band...
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 06:05:16 PM »


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