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Author Topic: my response to my last post  (Read 1035 times)

claude cascioli

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my response to my last post
« on: June 06, 2014, 09:47:51 am »

some of the comments to my last post. low ballers killing industry.what i was not understood is there a lot of so called sound companines taking jobs they have no businuess doing. i mean the guys who have a pair of powerd speakers a mackie mixer and try and do an outdoor event for a 1000 people and think they can do and fail. then the client says he charged me 200.00 why are you charging me 600.00 that customer has in thier mind 200.00 but they will pay 300.00 and its hard to tell them why you need to get 3 times the money . they dont understand and if you turn away that gig the are 10 more guys that will take it. what we need to do in this industry is get together start an assoc. that will make clients feel that were a real industry. when major artists book sound do you think they go to craigslist and look for a sound system no they call a known company like clair bros or maryland sound. and we should get the same treatment. i do educate my potenial clients about the diffrence between the dj doing sound and a sound company . most understand and will hire us. we need to do something about this or we will go the way and by the ways its also about the gear i think most of the gear out there is junk. you cant buy a system for 5000.00 and do an outdoor concert for 500 people the gear has not gotten much better than 20 years ago in the same price range  a real wireless that sound good still costs around 1000.00 like and telex or hme cost in the early 90s and you cant compare a powerd speaker selling for 500.00 to an older model. back in the 90s a pair of good jbl speakers cost about 1200.00 for a pair and an amp cost about 700-800 dollars but it was a lot louder and with more punch than a 1000.00pair of powerd speakers. let get together and change this
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 09:59:55 am »

some of the comments to my last post. low ballers killing industry.what i was not understood is there a lot of so called sound companines taking jobs they have no businuess doing. i mean the guys who have a pair of powerd speakers a mackie mixer and try and do an outdoor event for a 1000 people and think they can do and fail. then the client says he charged me 200.00 why are you charging me 600.00 that customer has in thier mind 200.00 but they will pay 300.00 and its hard to tell them why you need to get 3 times the money . they dont understand and if you turn away that gig the are 10 more guys that will take it. what we need to do in this industry is get together start an assoc. that will make clients feel that were a real industry. when major artists book sound do you think they go to craigslist and look for a sound system no they call a known company like clair bros or maryland sound. and we should get the same treatment. i do educate my potenial clients about the diffrence between the dj doing sound and a sound company . most understand and will hire us. we need to do something about this or we will go the way and by the ways its also about the gear i think most of the gear out there is junk. you cant buy a system for 5000.00 and do an outdoor concert for 500 people the gear has not gotten much better than 20 years ago in the same price range  a real wireless that sound good still costs around 1000.00 like and telex or hme cost in the early 90s and you cant compare a powerd speaker selling for 500.00 to an older model. back in the 90s a pair of good jbl speakers cost about 1200.00 for a pair and an amp cost about 700-800 dollars but it was a lot louder and with more punch than a 1000.00pair of powerd speakers. let get together and change this
I think this issue was thoroughly discussed in the previous thread.  If you want to be taken seriously, capitalization, punctuation, and paragraph form matter. 
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 10:35:15 am »

back in the 90s a pair of good jbl speakers cost about 1200.00 for a pair and an amp cost about 700-800 dollars but it was a lot louder and with more punch than a 1000.00pair of powerd speakers.

Yes $2000 of equipment in 1990's dollars should be better than $2000 of equipment in today's dollars. That's called inflation. Maybe you've heard of it?     On the other hand a HD TV costs much less now.   Some things go up in value, some go down. 

Business models change as well. You sound like the Blacksmith complaining about the invention of the automobile putting him out of of business.  Technology has made easier for people to get into the business. If you can't compete with them, it's your fault, not theirs. Maybe there's a guy in your town with the exact same equipment and skill level as you who's happy to work for half the money.  What are you going to do about it?  Deny him the right to a paycheck he's happy with?
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Steve M Smith

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2014, 10:40:58 am »

I think this issue was thoroughly discussed in the previous thread.  If you want to be taken seriously, capitalization, punctuation, and paragraph form matter.

Oh good, it's not just me who thinks that then (generally - not just in response to the first post).

Business is providing what a customer wants at a price he is happy to pay.  If someone can do that with whatever equipment he has, no matter how 'cheap' or 'entry level' it is, then that is a valid business.  Just as valid as the company with a warehouse full of top of the line equipment.

Everyone has to start somewhere and for most, that is with a small amount of equipment which is usually neither high end or new.

How you perform with that equipment is what will decide if you remain in business.  If you consistently provide your customers with what they want, you should do well.  However, if you are always providing a poor service, you won't get much work - the market will sort itself out.


Steve.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 10:43:53 am by Steve M Smith »
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Ray Aberle

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 11:19:40 am »

How you perform with that equipment is what will decide if you remain in business.  If you consistently provide your customers with what they want, you should do well.  However, if you are always providing a poor service, you won't get much work - the market will sort itself out.

This.

Seriously, Claude- you know the big problem is now? Someone is considering hiring you, they google your name, they find this thread. Awkward. "So, I understand you think I am stupid for only wanting to pay you $300. And that you have to "Edjumuhcate" me. What's this all about??" The Interwebz has a long arm and a deep memory...

But really. So someone is coming in with crap PA, and taking gigs from you. Either:
a) He'll be OK at it, the client won't notice anything amiss, and life is OK, or
b) He'll drop the ball, screw it up-- and then you're in line for the first call next time!

If you know gigs you lost, hey, go check them out. Stop by the festival or whatever and listen to how it sounds. If it seems like all hell is breaking loose, drop them an email the next Monday-- "So, I presume you won't be using THAT vendor again... I'd be happy to talk to you about next year's event, get your date locked in NOW, and let's make next year Awesome!"   This shows that even though you didn't get the job, you still give a shit about the client and the success of their event!

Basically, building a customer relationship is vital to being a success.

As for pricing in general, always make sure you're very clear about where the price is coming from. A...... part of my family....... don't want to reveal too much....... but were running a business making creative films of an animated type. One of my relatives that was involved with this, well, her "claim to success in running a business" was from doing girl scout cookie sales. Anyways, someone would come and say, "Hey, here's a project! How much?" -- She'd just make up a price. "Ummm, $50K." Problem is that she wasn't basing this number on what it would actually take to accomplish the project, or really anything else based in reality. Project ends up costing them $60K to produce. And you can't just go back to the client and ask them for more money because you screwed up the bidding process!

So, detailed estimates, line item what they're getting, make sure things like transport, delivery, labor, electrical needs, etc are all spelled out in there. Then, when this client says "Why are you charging me $600?" then you can show them, "well, you see there's the A1 for $250, that's me, then my A2, for $200, then $300 for the gear. So that's actually $750. Haha. But, it's what it will take to do your show. Cheap isn't always good, but good is rarely cheap!"

Good luck-- and seconded about sentences, paragraphs, spelling. We (like, everyone does, subconsciously) judge everyone based on the front that they present to others-- (understanding someone from another country who may be trying to learn English in their 40s or whatever) so the more professional you can present yourself, I think the better it will be received.

-Ray
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2014, 11:40:30 am »

You know I read the thread on the big boys forum, and didn't make any comments because I understand  lot of you have a lot at stake and "low ballers" are a serious threat to your business, and I saw you didn't get much sympathy there anyway; but bringing this thread to the lounge is like going into the kennel to complain about the dogs barking.  You're now complaining directly to the $300 a night guys who might be taking business away from you.
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Rob Gow

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 12:02:24 pm »

Complaining about lowballers and then doing gigs for free to take work away from other companies?

What about someone taking work from you by doing a one off to "show what they can do" for free....


Oh wait, you already started a thread about that.


What's good for the goose...
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Jerome Casinger

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 12:46:56 pm »

Ive been the "low baller" you can say.  I started with a mass purchase of PA equipment that was outdated but functional. I had a business plan however, and being in the Air Force had to adapt it every few years.  Now I own everything outright and the only thing still from my original purchase is all the copper.  Ive moved to a new area a couple months ago and I have contacted other sound companies to see what they are charging.  Needless to say the market isnt real strong here....however I have a way to market myself and will move forward. 

Have I taken some $300 gigs...yep...and some even lower, I know it ticks some people off, but thats what I was worth and what the market could sustain.  My rig can be set up and running sound check in an hour, and loaded back up in 45mins.  I have also taken some that were 5 times that much.  But I made it very clear with the low rate gigs, I was new and looking for the bands I want to work with and that rate would not be the standard, use me once and you will see why I am different. 

After working for a just a few bands, I am already getting more phone calls than I expected and have handed out over a dozen business cards in the last 3 alone.  So far I have found one band I enjoy working with, they get priority, they no longer get my introductory rate, but they were so pleased with there experience that they are ok with it and we have open dialog on pricing for gigs.

I am still not at the point where I can compete with the "big dogs", however I look at where I have come from and where I am going, and in the next 5 years I hope to be there.  I saw it posted somewhere else, but Polo shirts, business cards, and customer service.  When I was at Stlouis I turned down more work than I accepted and I equate it to that.

I personally am ok with the way the industry is.  I dont want it regulated.  If someone wants to pay for cheap sound, let them have cheap sound.  I have never had a shortage of business and I have never had a band give me a bad review/not recommend me, and by no means does that mean I am some awesome sound guy, but I am rock solid on the essentials to getting good sound and when you can look at other companies sound "deployments" that your in the level with and see everything that is wrong....I am happy with that and know I will keep getting business.

Cheers
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Bob Leonard

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 04:38:18 pm »

You know I read the thread on the big boys forum, and didn't make any comments because I understand  lot of you have a lot at stake and "low ballers" are a serious threat to your business, and I saw you didn't get much sympathy there anyway; but bringing this thread to the lounge is like going into the kennel to complain about the dogs barking.  You're now complaining directly to the $300 a night guys who might be taking business away from you.

Scott,
There are many more of us who frequent this forum who have worked at a higher level than intro sound guy than you might imagine. I hate to see the LAB watered down with posts like the OP's. My day may be done, but if I had to I bet I could do a decent job for an "A" level act.
 
What I find is that posts of this nature (OP) are often a cry for help from a person foundering about attempting to gain status within the industry and not knowing how. I'm sure you know, as do most of the members here, that not every gig is worth taking, and that every gig will usually carry a higher or lower price than the last.
 
Being able to adjust to the situation on hand requires an acquired knowledge based on experience, OR the willingness to listen to those who have walked the path before you. I don't believe there are any "ankle biters" out there at all. What I believe is that there are many, many beginners out there in search of an education, the OP being a prime example.
 
Once an entry level sound/band wanna be accepts the fact you can't sell your product at a loss and make it up in volume the light will shine on the hard rock dome. Until then we'll hear about the low ballers out there until the cows come home.
 
In 1964 my first gig paid $40, not much by todays standards, but it put $5 in each of our pockets. We could either save that money, blow it at the diner on the way home, or buy 20 gallons of gas. As we established a name for ourselves we became selective with the jobs we took, and we asked for more money. Soon the income was double, then triple, etc.. Gear paid for itself, and in 1966 I bought my first real PA, a Bogan amp and a pair of giant Atlas horns. All of my life it has been my goal to provide the best sound and entertainment possible, either through the house PA or my own, whether mixing for an a, b, c level act, or mixing from the deck for myself. In the end it's been a great ride down a road more twists and turns than a worm on a hot highway, and still the vehicle for my ride has been a class act, great sound, professionalism, and a good attitude.
 
Now if our OP is going to take his turn on the highway I suggest that he follow the suggestions so many of us given him already which in a nutshell is that he do the job right, and charge what the jobs worth. My rate for a two and sometimes three person four hour gig is between $900 and $2000 depending on location and customer need. I still do the occasional $3-400 gig for some special people if pressed hard, but that's all the gig would have paid anyway. No, there aren't any real ankle biters out there, just people who don't know how to increase their own net worth, or people who will soon be out of the business anyway.
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Matt Vivlamore

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Re: my response to my last post
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 07:53:35 am »

At least you put it in the Lounge...

I wonder how long before your post gets locked again.  http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=149819.0
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 07:58:36 am by Matt Vivlamore »
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