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Author Topic: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits  (Read 59528 times)

John Chiara

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2014, 12:37:32 PM »

I have insurance and commercial plates on my van, but store my gear in my garage.  I am a sole proprietor, not a corporation.  Does this make me a hobbyist?  Illegal?  Many electricians, roofers, plumbers, and other tradesmen store their vehicles and tools at their homes, but I doubt they would be consider themselves hobbyists.

I agree, but I would be afraid to operate in public settings where injury could happen....for any reason that might come back to me...without being incorporated. I don't want to lose my personal life if my insurance doesn't cover someone dying.
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Steve M Smith

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2014, 12:41:20 PM »

I ran a business in the UK. It is one hundred times more restrictive then in the US.. Plus the employees have more rights then the employer.

Possibly.  I was thinking more of the single person operation, or 'weekend warrior' as in the title of this thread.

These are usually people with a full time job doing something at the weekend.  All you need to do in the UK is register as self employed to pay tax on the extra income.  Public liability insurance is a good idea and you should ensure the insurance on any vehicle you use is valid for business use.

I don't think there should be too many restrictions on someone starting up in business. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Otherwise you would get to the point where you can only have a business if you already have an established business.


Steve.
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Jason Raboin

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2014, 08:05:29 PM »

I agree, but I would be afraid to operate in public settings where injury could happen....for any reason that might come back to me...without being incorporated. I don't want to lose my personal life if my insurance doesn't cover someone dying.

That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
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Jason Raboin
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2014, 09:05:10 PM »

That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
Keep in mind that a "corporation of one" offers little liability protection.  After suing the "corporation", they will surely sue the individual involved - both of which are you.
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Craig Leerman

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2014, 04:04:05 PM »

I have insurance and commercial plates on my van, but store my gear in my garage.  I am a sole proprietor, not a corporation.  Does this make me a hobbyist?  Illegal?  Many electricians, roofers, plumbers, and other tradesmen store their vehicles and tools at their homes, but I doubt they would be consider themselves hobbyists.

Most other tradespersons either work for a licensed company or have a license themselves. Most hobbyist audio folks are not licensed at all just like most local bands are not licensed and insured businesses.  Many areas are zoned to allow a person to keep their work van at their house. Some zoning allow certain businesses to use the house for their business. Where I live in Las Vegas, and where I used to live in Baltimore County a residence or neighborhood is not zoned for an audio production company, especially one with a truck larger than 5 tons.

Just because many people do the wrong thing does not make it right.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2014, 08:51:14 PM »

That makes sense but one of the largest sound companies in New England (large V-DOSC house) is a sole proprietorship and has been for like 40 years without incident.  I'm not so worried for now but it does make sense to incorporate at some point.
It doesn't matter if there is a sole proprietor or if the company is traded on the NYSE. What does matter is that there is a business license and enough insurance in place to cover accidents that include the public and hired hands. Incorporating may or may not be a good step for a business, and it is not a prerequisite to doing good business.
 
This entire thread was started as a bitch about "ankle biting" low balling competition, and not working with a license or insurance is obviously a way to lower costs. But guess what? EVERYONE here started somewhere and has provided services for less than someone else, so in light of that we have all bitten a few ankles in our time.
 
At my age and with everything that's going on in my life I've started to wind down, and I'm taking fewer gigs. I'm still holding the line on the cost for my band, but I could drop that price to the cost of a U-Haul rental tomorrow if I wanted to. I'm currently organizing a "veterans dance" for the fall which will be a fairly big deal in this state. I'll make sure all of my people are paid well, but if you feel a little nip at the heels, that's me. And if you happen to see an RFQ in this area for the event, don't even bother, because the event is sacred to me and I'll do it for $1 if I have to.
 
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Russ Davis

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« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2014, 08:19:29 AM »

Brian's comment to the OP:
Do you notice the hypocrisy of the first and last sentences of the post?

I notice Claude hasn't been back to the thread he started to answer this question, and after looking at his previous posts I doubt he will be.  I suspect his business may be suffering from issues other than ankle-biters.  Too bad; it was an interesting topic until his post meandered off into unrelated territory.
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Jason Raboin

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2014, 08:22:48 AM »

It doesn't matter if there is a sole proprietor or if the company is traded on the NYSE. What does matter is that there is a business license and enough insurance in place to cover accidents that include the public and hired hands. Incorporating may or may not be a good step for a business, and it is not a prerequisite to doing good business.
 
This entire thread was started as a bitch about "ankle biting" low balling competition, and not working with a license or insurance is obviously a way to lower costs. But guess what? EVERYONE here started somewhere and has provided services for less than someone else, so in light of that we have all bitten a few ankles in our time.


I agree that a business license and insurance are very important, and are one good way to separate the ankle biters from the legitimate players.  Craig seemed to want to add being a corporation to the things that you must do to be a "legitimate" company, and I was pointing out that there are some large sound companies that have not incorporated.

But the bigger issue is that there are a lot of sound companies that do not run their business like a business.  That means pricing based on a percentage of value, ROI, a living wage, expenses, etc.  There are larger companies that are just as guilty of this as small ones.  Some companies have different pricing levels for different types of clients, and some try to get as much money as they can out of each gig, often selling the client more gear than they need.  Another large company in New England will take the gig at the stated budget as long as there is gear available, to keep its engineers working.  These are short sighted policies.

Yes, everyone starts somewhere.  I did  few gigs for free when I first made the move from touring engineer to provider a couple of years ago.  I called it promotion, and prefer to work for free than at a discount.  It's pretty easy to tell a buyer that they will get it for free once, but if you give a discount, they will always expect a discount.
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Jason Raboin
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Bob Leonard

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2014, 10:21:20 AM »

I agree.

When I took over the care of my father over 6 years ago my life ceased with everything outside of that care. Yes, I was able to handle invitational gigs but I was selective. My father has passed now and the veterans tribute is in his honor. It's my gig start to finish so there won't be any RFQ as far as I can see. The twist will be the town who will help sponsor the event and they may insist on an RFQ simply to cover the legal aspects. For everything else I hold the line, and that line is considerably higher than most. PM me with the providers name you mentioned. Working in this area it would be interesting to know who that is.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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Brian Jojade

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Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2014, 11:54:52 AM »

I don't think there should be too many restrictions on someone starting up in business. Everyone needs to start somewhere. Otherwise you would get to the point where you can only have a business if you already have an established business.


This is true to a point.  However, the extremely easy startup allows people to get into the game for a very short while, and NOT make a profit on it since the business is subsidized by their normal day job.  While that's fine to get financing to start up, when the business plan does not include the ability to even break even, it hurts those that want to do this for a living.

I can't think of many other businesses that have to operate with competition that doesn't plan to make a profit.
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Brian Jojade

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: low balling a weekend worriors that have ruined profits
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2014, 11:54:52 AM »


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