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Author Topic: Crossover Points- Less strain on amps, speakers , Suffering sound quality  (Read 1755 times)

Spenser Hamilton

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Step 2: Re-read everything Ray, Ivan and others have said.


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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Bob-I disagree- I think 90Hz and 1.8K would be better---------------

Or maybe 80 and 1.2K or maybe 100 and 1.4K.

Any of those should "work" .

Are those your acoustic or electronic crossover suggestions?   Oh wait, the troll wouldn't be able to get the acoustic crossover correct anyways since he seems to gave no interest in measuring so let him figure it by himself!
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Ray Aberle

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Well, you got out of answering another one! You came, you said absolutely nothing, then you left; typical.

I'm offended that you think my short response wasn't answering your question. Please review my post- you asked if you "...are going about this the right way," and I did bluntly answer, "no." The reason I posted what I did, before going to bed last night, was that I knew that the members of this forum who are experienced in building their own speakers (Art Welter is one, by the way.) would need more thorough information in order to answer your question *good* -- and I assumed (mistakenly, it appears) that you wanted a thorough response to your question.

It is fascinating that you assume that speaker building is as simple as looking up a driver for stated specifications, buying it, and drilling it into a box. If that was the case, JBL, EAW, d&b, etc would be coming up with new speakers every two months as they build new drivers. And that simply doesn't happen. They spend literally thousands of hours in house, making sure that the driver AND THE ENCLOSURE performs TOGETHER precisely as they intend it to. This way, I can purchase a brand new JBL STX835, and they can publish the response specs of the unit, and I know it's going to respond how it should. I can plan on it!

The drivers that you selected can sound entirely different based on the enclosure they are installed into. That is why a measurement of the performance of your driver, installed in the box, is a vital piece of information to give you the best information possible.

If you want a quick and dirty answer, several people have given you crossover points. However, you're still going to need to purchase an external crossover, and since you have already stated that you're adverse to spending any money on this project at this time...

If you choose to get a thorough (and as fully correct as is possible without seeing the speakers in person) response, you will need to provide more details as to how your speakers are performing.

So the choice is yours:
- Quick and dirty, based on the minimum information available
- Thorough and accurate, based on good information
--- or continue to ignore the collective *hundreds* of years of knowledge on this forum, and keep pissing people off. That is why we're required to use our full real names on here- the idea is that it keeps a certain level of decorum and professionalism on here. We're attributable to our names, after all. Of course, if no one on here knows who you are, I guess you get away with a bunch, but rest assured if you "make it big" as a "Traveling Soloist,"and end up in a venue with someone from the board, they're going to remember you. That could be awkward.

Just forget it! I get absolutely nothing at all when I come here, except agitation. A person can't have any kind of a meaningful discussion here. What you get is a bunch of guys trying to show-off and looking like a bunch of cry-babies. There is nothing at all that I want here. I don't want to be part of this kind of association.

I'm normally one of the *last* people to say something negative about anyone... but gosh, I feel like no one will be sorry to see you leave.

Good luck--

Ray


PS: There are forums dedicated, as Tim mentioned, to DIY speaker projects. May I respectfully suggest you may get better assistance over there, from people who do DIY speakers all the time? (Many of the people on here are too busy, you know, gigging with pro PA systems to try and fart around with building something from scratch. And have you heard of technical riders?)
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Kelcema Audio
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Art Welter

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1)At the present time, I have 6 speaker cabinets, each housing its own dedicated speaker, and another 2 enclosures, each housing its own horn. My typical setup is 3 stacked speakers on each side of the stage, with the horns up top, the subs on the bottom and the main woofers between.

2) The subs are Eminence Omega Pro 18A= 40Hz to 800Hz 800W RMS 8 ohms each
The Woofers are Eminence Kappa Pro 15A= 46Hz to 4K
500W RMS 8 ohms each
The HF drivers are Peavey RX22= 500Hz to 15KHz

3)These are my Settings:
Lowpass~3KHz for the Kappa Pro
Lowpass~630Hz for the Omega Pro
 For the RX22 and the Ampeg B2RE amp, I'll cut all frequencies down 12dB except 2K and above, I'll boost. Turn all knobs down (like mid-bass, etc) for the RX22 I hate this setup, but what else can I do except spend more money.

4)Amplifiers:
The (2) XLS 1000 bridged at 8ohms- 700 watts each
The XLS 2500 bridged at 4 ohms gives me 2400 watts
Don't laugh, but I'm a poor musician. This is all I have
To power the Peavey RX22 HF Compressors, I will be using an Ampeg B2RE amp and will be using the EQ and every other means incorporated in the unit to cut out the lows.

5)*As far as using the DSP features of the DriveCore Series, I didn't find data about the dB curve at the lowpass and highpass filter settings, but am almost positive that whichever setting is choosen, it will not be an absolute drop-off, or will it be; anyone know?
Sky,

1) As a general observation,  cabinets putting out frequencies above 100 Hz should be elevated above head height and pointed down at the furthest seating position. With the drivers you have, a crossover in the 100 Hz range between the 18" and 15" will "divide the load" of most pop music reasonably well, and won't require elevating the presumably larger, heavier bass cabinets.
2) You neglected to put in an important detail in determining the upper crossover point, the horn that the compression driver is used on.
3) All cone speakers have a "piston band", a frequency range of linear response determined by the diameter. Above the piston band, dispersion narrows (the speaker "beams") and cone breakup occurs, often creating ragged frequency response and uneven dispersion.  A 15" driver has about 90 degree dispersion at 1200 Hz, if you are using a HF horn with 90 degree dispersion, that would be about as high a crossover point as would be advisable. If you look at the Kappa 15 frequency response, you will notice around a 6 dB peak at 1400 Hz, due to narrowing frequency response and cone breakup.
4) That won't cut it at high levels. The tone controls are shelving, so will reduce LF reaching the HF driver, but it will still be there, only reduced by about 10 dB or so. If you hit the HF with around 10 watts, one watt of bass will still make the diaphragm have enough excursion to hammer the phase plug, which sounds like shit and will generally destroy it fairly quickly. As mentioned before, you either need DSP in all the amps, or an outboard DSP or crossover. I have seen 24 dB per octave analog crossovers go for $25, less than the cost of a blown diaphragm.
5)DSP slopes are generally selectable, read the manual to determine what they are. 24 dB per octave is a good choice for  HF driver protection, steep enough to minimize the crossover overlap region, but not too steep to "ring". Ignoring impedance, in just 1/3 octave a 24 dB slope will reduce the power level by 8 dB, only 1/6 the power it sees above the crossover point. For HF drivers this makes a huge difference, using 24 dB rather than 12 dB can allow a crossover an octave lower. For low frequencies, also helpful, using a 12 dB crossover at 100 Hz you will still hear vocals coming from the subs (unpleasant) while a 24 dB slope will pretty much eliminate that problem.

Art
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:06:26 pm by Art Welter »
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Don Boomer

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Sky-

Is this basically a playback system for your instrument?  If that's the case then tuning by ear can be perfectly valid.  When setting crossovers there isn't really a single answer.  It depends on what you are running through the system and what you expect to get from the system.

So not having a clue what you are doing I'd still like to make a few recommendations that are basically just repeating Art's advice. 

Set your low pass much lower ... by at least 2 octaves.  I would also recommend setting your high pass lower by an octave ... BUT ... that will put an extra strain on your HF drivers.  The problem you have is that 15" drivers will start to get very beamy above about 1kHz or so.  So above that frequency only people sitting directly on axis will hear from 1kHz up to where you cross into your HF drivers.

What horns are you using with the RX22 drivers.  That will make a big difference on where you can go with this.
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Don Boomer
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Sky Miller

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Hello all.
I suppose you can call this my farewell speech.

I didn't come here to make enemies; I came here to make friends. I came here to learn and possibly impart some of what I know to a few of you. I'm really not a bad guy.

I don't mind using my real name, although I think some of you should mask yours in embarrassment. I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't say outside of here. I have respect for other people; (that is) those who know how to respect others. I have no regrets saying anything I did here. What I do regret is having stayed here as long as I did. I was hoping to meet a bunch of decent guys who I would eventually become friends with. I have much to offer, but you will never get a chance to know anything about that. I'll be leaving with my dignity in tact.

Unfortunately, I had to battle it out as it seems, with too many clowns here, before I found someone who cared enough about someone's quest for answers to finally take the time to answer, with some purpose and respect.

Art Welter, whoever you are, thanks. When I began reading your response, I was in awe. Your response was polite, respectful, and extremely informative. I only would have hoped that a response like that would have been the FIRST response that I received, then this experience would have gone in another direction and evolved into something very meaningful and rewarding for everyone.

I never forget those who have helped me along in my life and I hold them very special and in high regard. I also don't forget the ones who have caused me grief. When I say, "don't forget" I am not speaking about dwelling on those people, with penned up hate. I simply remember them as being a bad experience and may look back on it with disgust.

What I am saying here is that I had to fight so hard to finally get a decent answer from someone, in which we all could have had a healthy share in discussing, that I'm not interested in continuing. Art, everything you mentioned in your response (and I suggest every last one of you read it), carried a lot of weight. Every thing you said, was worth saying. And if I am not mistaken, you provided a worth-while answer, somewhere else for me; thanks again.

I am so completely drained and exhausted from fighting  and struggling  with a group of you on this site, that I have really become dis-interested in finding any answers here. I was also hoping that I would meet a group of guys that I could converse with and become friends with; how rewarding would that be? What a sad impossibility that turned out to be. It's what I thought this was all about.

Apparently, the people that hang out here on the site are not at all like the some great people that I associate with, from other sites and forums. What the hell happened to you people? If you have no interest in meeting new people and sharing what you know, IMO you shouldn't be given a keyboard license.

I'm not going to spend another minute of my time trying to get you guys to take a good look at yourselves. You can wallar in your own feces the rest of your life, and I hope that the personality you show here isn't the one you carry with you in daily life.

But Art, I am not directing these comments at you. You seem to be the knight in shining armour around here. It's too bad that just being here, makes me want to puke. You and I could very well have hit it off. Maybe we could have a nice conversation, without all these other self-important A-hole losers around.

Don't get me wrong, you A-hole losers; I am not discounting your credentials, knowledge, or wisdom. I don't blame you for wishing you had more information, because whether you know it of not, I know a little something about how important the stinkin speaker enclosure is. And dispite all your smart-ass comments and attempts, I was not going to have my post steered in the direction that YOU wanted it to go. We could have gotten into all of that later- (and I would have loved to) after the reason for my post was satisfied.

So what! If you thought the enclosure was too important to dismiss in answering. There is a nice way to "explain" to someone how important it is in answering the question. Talking about more detail? YOU want more details from ME? How about giving some up first? I spent a lot of time including details in my post, along with including some links. Just admit it, it's a lot easier to stick your head through the door and say, "Need more information." and disappear, rather than take the time to explain why it is so essential that this information is necessary to answer the question. If you don't have anything good to say, then don't bother saying anything at all. And I don't care if you were ready for beddy-bye.

So I am saying, "Forget it!" And if the day ever should come when I "make it big" (by the way, that's not my aspiration), and happen to run into one of you, be sure to come up and introduce yourself. I would love to attach a face with an arrogant personality. Perhaps though, under different circumstances, we could be friends.
---------------------------------------------- Whoa!

I think I might have said "Good-bye" too soon. I just got another really good response! I guess a person has to wade through a bunch of crap, before they get to the good stuff.

Was this my initiation guys? Com'on.

Art has led the way for the decent people, or was it our great moderator. Maybe moving this "out of wack" post was a very ingenious thing to do. All I remember is the last name Kerr. I'll be looking you up to thank you- for one reason, not stopping this maddness, just moving it. And for another, allowing me to answer back to those who make it a point to belittle other people by dazzling them by  with all of their technical knowledge. We can go there, to that deep, dark place of formulas and factors, where you love to lurk, but how about starting in a simple place?

Because now I see that at least there are two people that have enough heart to respond with a decent attitude, I will continue (regretfully to some) and try to start this thing all over.

Thank you too, Don Boomer. I will read the rest of your post and figure out a way to talk with just you and Art.

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.
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Ray Aberle

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---------------------------------------------- Whoa!

I think I might have said "Good-bye" too soon. I just got another really good response! I guess a person has to wade through a bunch of crap, before they get to the good stuff.

Was this my initiation guys? Com'on.

Art has led the way for the decent people, or was it our great moderator. Maybe moving this "out of wack" post was a very ingenious thing to do. All I remember is the last name Kerr. I'll be looking you up to thank you- for one reason, not stopping this maddness, just moving it. And for another, allowing me to answer back to those who make it a point to belittle other people by dazzling them by  with all of their technical knowledge. We can go there, to that deep, dark place of formulas and factors, where you love to lurk, but how about starting in a simple place?

Because now I see that at least there are two people that have enough heart to respond with a decent attitude, I will continue (regretfully to some) and try to start this thing all over.

Thank you too, Don Boomer. I will read the rest of your post and figure out a way to talk with just you and Art.

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.

Oh, Sky.

I see several jabs towards me in your post. That hurts, man. If you re-read my initial two posts, they were clearly pointed at the need for a bit more information about the cabinet. I assumed you knew that the cabinet enclosure was an important part of the tonal response of your speakers and therefore that measurements would be helpful, and I apologise for making those assumptions. Had I realised this, I would have explained in more detail why I was asking what I was asking. Please know that I wasn't ever trying to blow you off, or avoid your initial question, but again, knowing the great minds on here, I knew those were questions that would be asked!

As I mentioned before, Art has built his own speakers for many years, so he's really smart in those regards. I don't know Don more then his posts on here. Ivan works for Danley Sound Labs in Florida. I've not built my own speakers (no time, or talent to do so!) so that is why I wasn't directly giving you thoughts on crossover points... but had I done so (which would have been a SWAG)- look at it from my point of view: If I steered you wrong, you'd be mad at me! I was just looking to help good solutions come out as quickly as possible for you.

If you feel that this desire to assist is reason to be a jerk towards me, that is your choice.

Good luck man--

Ray

(in before a lock...)
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Russ Davis

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People Skills (Or Lack Thereof...)
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2014, 05:39:51 pm »

I didn't come here to make enemies; I came here to make friends. I came here to learn and possibly impart some of what I know to a few of you. I'm really not a bad guy...

I can't figure out why the two of you have posted such nice responses and the others just didn't get it. Oh, well.

That's a shame, because every years hundreds of new people, many with little or no experience whatsoever and others with years of background themselves, come here and receive respectful, helpful advice from good people who want to help.   Those same people tried to help you as well, but got slapped down with sneering comments like, "And for all of you who want to dazzle me right out of another answer with all your spec questions and comments, just forget about anything else; it's not relevant.  Just because I am listed as a newbie, doesn't mean that I'm stupid. Please don't tell me you need more information."

Despite your arrogance and "rules" (Don't ask me any questions!  Just give me answers!  NOW!!!), folks tried to treat you the same as the other newcomers.  You, however, decided you were special, and rewarded us with mature comments like "It's too bad that just being here, makes me want to puke... Maybe we could have a nice conversation, without all these other self-important A-hole losers around".

I hope your manager (if you have one) is more diplomatic than you.  If you're your own manager, good luck getting and keeping gigs and otherwise coping out there in the business world.  Cheers!

(Expecting this thread to get locked any moment now...)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 05:47:01 pm by Russ Davis »
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Doug Fowler

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Hello all.
I suppose you can call this my farewell speech.

You got that right.  Buh bye.

*poof*
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